About This Episode:
In today's episode, we'll dive into the spooky world of Scary Halloween things and automation with Paul Grossman, the renowned Doc Arts wizard of test automation, and Larry Goddard, a seasoned automation expert. Discover how to eradicate ghosts and bugs from your system to unravel testing mysteries. We'll explore the scary things that can go wrong in the automated world. So, get ready to be immersed in the thrilling stories of test automation as, together with our guests, we unlock the mysteries, conquer the ghosts, and ultimately find success in the automated realm. Listen up to this spine-tingling episode of the TestGuild Automation Podcast episodes.
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About Paul Grossman
Paul Grossman has been a Dark Arts Wizard of Test Automation since 2001. He has worked with WinRunner in C++, Selenium in Java, WebdriverIO in JabaScript, and testRigor in plain English. Most recently, he has been helping a supply chain management company test their applications.
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About Larry Goddard
Connect with Larry Goddard
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[00:00:11] Joe Colantonio Hey, welcome to the Test Guild Automation Podcast, a belated Annual Halloween special that was supposed to be released last week. I mixed up the release date, so I'm releasing it now, but the info here will help you fight Spooky automation all year round. And today, we will be joining trick or treating with Paul Grossman and Larry Goddard. If you don't know, Paul has been the Dark Arts Wizard of Test automation since 2001. He's worked with WinRunner, C++, Selenium, Java, WebDriverIO, and a bunch of other tools as well, and most recently, he has been helping a supply chain management company test their applications as well. Also, Larry is the creator of KlassiJS and the Test automation architect at Oxford University Press. Prior to joining Oxford University Press, he worked with a bunch of different other companies, like a major airline, a leading software testing company, and two major telecommunication companies. He's also acted as a technical advisor to a major fashion house and an expert witness for a leading international law firm. He knows a lot of things. He's also a speaker at many testing events. So really excited to have Larry and Paul join us for today's show. So tighten up your cloaks, lighting your Jack-o'-lantern, and prepare your potions. We're about to embark on a journey through the misrouted paths of automation testing. If you dare, hit the subscribe and summon this podcast on your device every time we release a new episode. So let the haunting I mean the learning begin.
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[00:01:38] Joe Colantonio Hey guys, welcome to the Guild.
[00:02:17] Larry Goddard Yeah. Joe, how are things? Pleasure.
[00:02:21] Joe Colantonio Great. Good to see you, Larry. Hey, Paul.
[00:02:25] Paul Grossman Hey, Joe. Great to be back. This is always my favorite tradition.
[00:02:29] Joe Colantonio It is for sure. Absolutely. I thought we'd start off with a, no. Just a little bit of maybe reminiscing on maybe your most ghostly glitches that you encountered. So have you ever encountered a ghost bug that appeared or disappeared and then reappeared? And how did you manage to capture a find about automation? I give Larry time to think about this because Paul's ready to go.
[00:02:55] Paul Grossman I do. I don't know if I've mentioned the story before, but I did work for a floral delivery company, and one of the things we were testing was the reset of a password. And what we found was that occasionally the password web page would crash, and sometimes the password page would be perfectly fine. What would they were doing was generating a brand new password for the user and the requirement said to use the ASCII characters in order to generate a new password. Now, the problem was, is that the password that was being generated might think the issue might be as well, it actually used 128 all 120 characters. It could be spaces, it could be non-printable characters, it could be a bell. But this wasn't the major issue. I figured out was that it would also generate occasionally, sometimes a square of an angle bracket to the left or an angle back to the right. And the DOM page would interpret that as the beginning or end of a web page tag, effectively crashing the page. So that was a ghost that would pop up go away. It took me a little while to replicate that.
[00:04:01] Joe Colantonio Very nice. How about you, Larry?
[00:04:05] Larry Goddard I don't think my ghost is as good as far as it goes. But I remember back in the day I was working for this company and it's all about. We're doing this automation on one of the things was I would have this script running and would work. It's one of those things that would work locally when it wouldn't work in the CI environment. So you try to think about why? Because everything sets the same and what we get there realized was the window view setting was being carried. It only carried over. It was written and it had coded the carry-over when it got over there. For some strange reason, it was reading the other way around.
[00:04:46] Joe Colantonio Oh my gosh, that is diabolical.
[00:04:51] Larry Goddard Yeah. I thought a little nightmare to figure out why. I mean, yeah. In the end of it I realized the way Ruby was interpreting it, it was read in height and then width as opposed to width and then height. And that was a nightmare.
[00:05:04] Joe Colantonio Nice. Awesome. So I thought we'd go over some of the haunting experiences you might have had and let me know if you have any other questions, you want me to ask. But I thought we'd start off with the stain on theme here. If you could brew a magic potion to instantly solve one major issue in test automation, what ingredients would it contain? Let's start with you, Larry.
[00:05:33] Larry Goddard Interesting. Let me see. Ingredients first. I'll throw in KlassiJS in the pot.
[00:05:39] Joe Colantonio Nice.
[00:05:42] Larry Goddard Then, since I had a lot with Paul. I started learning very weird stuff. So I'll throw in KlassiJS inside there and because I have a lot of bits and pieces in there and then, what I'm going to do is get some cobwebs, spider cobwebs, jumping in the pot there. And some, what do you call them? Ice, hot ice, dry ice, streaming there, they're going to brew brew nice and lovely then steam all of other little bit some AI stuff and then mixture in there. Mix it up a little bit. Voila! What I'm going to do is I'm going to be able here when a test is run, it must now it will take it and say, oh this test run, where did this test come from or it came from here, I'll go across there and say, oh I like you and write all the other test that you're so required to be run inside? That would be my test-generated areas. Now we call it the AI generated for Klassi.
[00:06:47] Joe Colantonio Delicious. Sounds awesome. Paul?
[00:06:50] Paul Grossman My magic brew would basically have two ingredients in there. First of all, we'd have self-healing objects. We would be having our zombie objects if they were dead. If they were stale, they'd be coming back to life, being able to find them. The only happens is that so change in the ability of the in the actual makeup of the object, it's become some other class. So it's changed like from a link anchor to a button anchor. We'd be able to do that, bring that back so we can reduce our maintenance. And the second thing we were doing is looking for elements that are located off-screen. We're trying to do a click to them and they're generating click intercepted issue. And we would basically mix into that a scroll on the view in order to get that element on page and again reduce the chances of that particular error.
[00:07:49] Joe Colantonio Nice. Just so people know we didn't think of these questions. These questions are right on the spot. You guys are quick, and even though I'm hitting you with things that I didn't think you build the answer right away. So that's awesome. That's kind of scary in itself, but that's shows how you're like warlocks of automation. So I love it. I guess the next scary question is how do you cast a spell to ensure the quality of your automated test?
[00:08:11] Paul Grossman Well, for me, I'll tell you that one of the things I heard just a couple of weeks back talking with one of my managers, he actually asked me, Can you run the automation, the script, the smoke and the regression more often than every release? I actually told him, I said, we actually run it nightly. Every night. Every morning I get up, I look at my results and I can see a historical grade of showing, hey, how much green do I have or did everything go red? We don't really actually look once every sprint, every two or three weeks, this is a bad idea. Every morning. Just looking at and seeing if things going in the right direction, Are things awful? And that's the best advice I can give.
[00:08:53] Larry Goddard Yeah, I mean, likewise for me, I think that's one of the best advice. Staying with the team of scariness. I think what I want to do or try to do one day is because my test is run just like Paul. I have it run every night and after the test run, they generate every 4:00 every morning it fires up an email of all concerned from all of the different projects. What would I try and do and I don't know if I could pull this off is get it that when the email comes out, anything that fails, it must create, you know what a marching band? With the big clashing. Once it failed, it would come in it was echo this big class across so you know something failed the night before but like Paul say, it's one of the best to check that your tests are running, and have some quality there, you have to see your results and improve on them.
[00:09:53] Paul Grossman Joe, I was going to say piggyback on that something else we had done recently was we actually don't send email updates because we get a whole bunch of those being in your email inbox and it's starting to ignore it. What we found was really successful is we actually sent messages with Slack. We had our own personal Slack channel. The great thing about this is that when we launch a regression suite, it may take 20 minutes, it might take 2 hours, it might 6 hours to finish, and you forget that you launched it 6 hours ago. What's great about this on our Slack channel, it would highlight and once it highlights like, Oh, hey, the cookies are done and then you go click on it, see okay. Who ran the test? I got my name on it, a smoke test and it's now done and I go back check it out. It wouldn't be out of mind, out of sight. I could immediately follow up on exactly what my results are and be up to speed real time.
[00:10:45] Joe Colantonio Nice. It also sounds like a way you can make it so your developers don't become zombies when there's a failure in your tests because you're learning them.
[00:10:53] Paul Grossman Yeah.
[00:10:55] Joe Colantonio Thank you. Thank you very much.
[00:10:56] Paul Grossman Definitely.
[00:11:03] Joe Colantonio The most terrifying thing a lot of testers are afraid of lately is AI. And I guess everyone's been hearing about ChatGPT generative AI. So curious to get your thoughts on, is this going to be really like a vampire that's going to suck the blood of all the testers and they're going to go away and no longer have jobs? What are your thoughts on ChatGPT, I guess, and generative AI in general, Larry?
[00:11:24] Larry Goddard Yeah, well, for me personally, I think, it wouldn't. The short answer is you will not lose your job. That's the short answer. Well, I mean, I think that would be it is and it will be a real addition to your toolkit. You get to do a lot of stuff and it could even generate code for you. I mean, you can test it. I especially, I personally like it for generating test data, we have a lot of data to produce. You can get to do that if you're passing the right parameter state to give you a backup of the few data for there. And also in terms of help in writing some of your base code, I like to call it pseudocode we might have to a lot change date. Then that it's good. It's really good. You will not lose a job that's one thing. What I would see is I think people should especially the developers and the automated QAs, they should embrace it and use it as a tool to enhance what they're doing and help them save time and do not let and write down stuff like I see data generation right in the front functions of things. It helps. Paul?
[00:12:36] Paul Grossman I can agree with that. One of the things I was looking at was trying to replicate something I did with UFT about 15 years ago, which was to have an independent console window that pops up and you could send stuff to that rather than having the console window in the IDE. I had no idea how to do it. And then I asked ChatGPT, Hey, can you figure this out and produced 10 seconds of 12 lines of code that I could go and create this. I love that. I love that you can use it to give you ideas and optimize your methods and suggestions on that. Obviously, ChatGPT and we got CodePilot out there. I will also tell people if you're concerned that the Terminators are coming from this thing. This is the test that you can do. Ask ChatGPT or any one of those AI things out there to solve the current day's wordle. Ask it for five letters and the third letter is an A, and usually, I can't figure that out if it can't get past the wordle, can't solve that for you. I don't think it's coming to take over the world. It's going to have a hard problem. And one of the recent sessions I did with Larry and the other guys were talking with, you mentioned a thing called Pi AI, I only mentioned it here because it was funny because I'd never heard of it. I looked at it, I started asking questions and I swear the thing started flirting with me. Telling me I was really interesting. And I'm like, this thing wants to date me. I don't know. My wife will be very unhappy with this thing, so be careful what you're looking.
[00:14:05] Joe Colantonio Well, you're cheating on me with another podcaster. You all did another episode, Paul? That's what I'm more upset about.
[00:14:15] Paul Grossman I didn't mention their name. It's okay.
[00:14:18] Joe Colantonio Oh, NIce, it's okay. So, Larry, I heard a vampire told me that he heard that you're taking a course on A.I., so actually studying it. A little more detail. Is there anything that you were surprised by or surprised to learn and how you could apply it to testing and how it may not apply to testing?
[00:14:35] Larry Goddard I think one of the things that I wouldn't say surprised by when things kind of like show itself is only the government and I quote the government stuff that's going on with the technology and why things are this concerning is that is about regulations. And I don't think that coming out of this course doing the whole AI program. It's about how they're going to regulate that and what they're going to do. And case of point, is where America, the moment decided to put some trade embargo on sending chips to China because of that whole thing. And that's one of the things about it. And from why I think my argument, not argument but I see what my take on it is why trying to regulate the technology? Why don't you just regulate what do people do with the technology that would be easier to regulate because, yeah, let's say one company A writing regulation, company B doing it, company C, not company I'm sorry, Country ABCD, they all writing regulations but you know who is there to say, how should we match all this together to come up with one nice regulation that will regular the whole thing? And somebody makes a point like it can be like the financial industry, but then you have an issue with that. And the issue about is this is something about this learning. This is something that they're learning and learning any more data you feed, the better it get. How could you regulate it like numbers on a page? But there are only things that came out of it is like mind-blowing for me.
[00:16:09] Joe Colantonio Can get very crazy and creepy for sure. I think where we're going. Good things to think about though, are ethics and how it affects regulations that they're not going overboard with things that aren't even going to help for sure. I'm always wondering, I know you both are always messing around with different frameworks and different automation tools. Is there anything you could do to help unlock the spooky superpowers of hybrid frameworks like WebDriverIO? I heard there may be something in the works to help with this. Any thoughts, Paul?
[00:16:39] Paul Grossman Yeah, we're actually working on a book. We're just finishing up the last bits of it, so it's kind of a little bit of a superhero theme that allows you to unlock your mutant powers as an automation engineer. And we have a whole bunch of little secrets of how to make things better and faster implemented in your framework. We're doing it in WebDriverIO that's Christian Bromann out there, which is a fantastic tool. By the way, a little update on him his support as changed. His support is sitting on Discord these days. if you need to get some information on that you're looking for, check that out. Larry, anything else you want to talk about our book that we're working on there?
[00:17:22] Larry Goddard Yeah, I mean, just like things are much better because of the superhero theme, I decided today to show the audience what does superhero look like? Right? Look at this, right now, I'm Larry Goddard. Also short for Larry G. Well look at this, Super Man.
[00:17:39] Joe Colantonio That's cool.
[00:17:41] Paul Grossman I'm the Automation. Batman, Vengeance.
[00:17:47] Larry Goddard It's all about a superhero thing. Just that's my hat and glasses on. Boom, I'm Super Man. I think that's one thing. Doing the book with Paul. I think it brought out some of my creativeness, like if I somebody, I will give this secret, I'll put this whole switch statement. You're now switching in case of X. And it was so funny, Paul. I looked at code on Paul and something and I realized, wait a minute, we can do this better. So sad, so done. I came up with a unique nice little way to get around it and write switch statements. Using switch statements.
[00:18:26] Joe Colantonio Okay.
[00:18:26] Paul Grossman By the way, just to also let you know, ChatGPT did not come up with that approach in any way.
[00:18:38] Larry Goddard I wanted to do it ChatGPT.
[00:18:40] Paul Grossman I know you were giving me advice. And by the way, the book is. Go ahead, Larry.
[00:18:47] Larry Goddard I mean, what I want to say is one of the things is that. And Paul had this thing, he had a question and I would elaborate on it. It was about soft-assertion. He had been asking up and down the community how to get this done and let Paul let you about it.
[00:19:01] Paul Grossman So, yeah, one of the things that has always bothered me is I'll ask about soft-assertions where you're failing, one validation out of five on a page. If the first one fails, the other four don't get anything done on them. And I'm not crazy about it. Soft-assert says, Hey, I'm going to validate each one of these and at the end, I'll do assert all and give you a results on that. And when I've asked about that on things like our website for support of coding, which will come to me, which will come to me in a moment. The answer I've always gotten back is no, that's not the way we do it. Why would anyone do it? All my friends don't do this soft-assert. I'm never crazy about an answer like that, that's something. I want to make sure that people understand how you can do it, the way you can do it. Why it's a good benefit. And I think that's a really good example is it's quite almost on one page. If you fail at that point, there may be no point moving on to the next page. I did also want to mention that our publisher is publishing and they make wonderful books like a front-end Web Developers Guide to Testing from Eran Kinsbruner. He is also a wonderful friend of mine, and we also have books like Robotic Process Automation, which I actually bought these. I didn't get them for free. And every book I've got, I don't have any PDFs. I go and support our authors. I buy them. They're in fact, I have a wonderful book called The UFT API Testing Manifesto written by the stand-in Joe Colantonio. It still out there being published. So go and get that. I don't know who published it but I'm not going to mention. I don't want to get in trouble with my own publisher.
[00:20:45] Larry Goddard But I mean in turn on that and see, I think we solved the problem. We solved the whole problem. We did it. Yeah, we did it. Now you can actually, now, despite what everybody has said to Paul of everything, Paul, reach out. And in the process I'm saying, Hey, we can fix that. Now you can have 50 messages on the page and run to all of them. It will not kill the process. Check all of them, and then it will split our report out there and say, oh, the 14th one failed or the 2nd and the 3rd one failed. It will actually do them. Pass Pass Fail Fail Pass Pass. I will not shut the test down because of an assertion, just one little assertion fail. That's a little part of some of the stuff that's coming out that we put inside the book so that people could understand that despite the fact that the big people, the big names like Selenium on WebDriverIO, we using them saying it can be done and they're not supposed to do for what it's going to be done and we're doing it.
[00:21:51] Joe Colantonio Awesome. When it comes to chores, it's almost like Halloween costumes. There's so many to choose and everyone has a reason why they chose it. So why read a book on WebDriverIO?
[00:23:58] Joe Colantonio Very nice. What can people get their hands on this book to help fight spooky scenarios they might encounter with WebDriverIO or automation in general?
[00:24:08] Paul Grossman As they reach out to Pet Publishing. It should be, it's Halloween right now. I think they should be released probably at the end of September. We'll be promoting this out on LinkedIn, Twitter, X, and Threads, whatever. Reach out to me. I'm the DarkArtsWizard@gmail.com. Larry, reach out to Larry, he's also on LinkedIn.
[00:24:29] Larry Goddard Yeah.
[00:24:32] Larry Goddard I think realistically we looking out like say maybe the end of November I think November and December and time around that somewhere on that, it should be coming out. You know that means Joe, that means I could come and rub shoulders with you as a publisher, as an author. Who knows? Maybe next I decide to and I want to say, I kind of I have to say, I'm very appreciative of Paul because it's he who started the write this book and he reached out to me and asked me if I wanted to cop-author with him on. After a bit of hmmmm. I decided why not?
[00:25:08] Paul Grossman Larry has been great. He's basically been, he kind of pushes me and gets me to get back into this whole thing. As an automation engineer, I will admit I'm a little lazy and learning a whole bunch of new stuff in this experience itself. I learned about NPM, and then when I hooked up with Larry, Larry's like, No, no, man, you got to use YARN. And I was like, that's great. And then but two weeks ago, three weeks ago, one of the things that went hot was BUN. BUN is fantastic. Let's go use BUN to this. And Larry's like, Would you tell me, Larry, about BUN?
[00:25:41] Larry Goddard Like I said, it's all about hype. Bun come on. Already ready to jump in and use BUN to do everything. And I was like, No, that is just hype. Go take it on. 2 weeks after that conversation there it is, Bun is useless. It cannot do. That's literally 2 weeks after that conversation Paul, it's all over the internet. How BUN is useless. All the hype is gone.
[00:26:13] Paul Grossman Yeah, it didn't live of what it is out there.
[00:26:25] Larry Goddard We need to get away. One thing we need to do is I think that's what the book doing. That's why we trying to get away from all the hype and use and things that have a community behind it. And if not, if you stuck with something, you actually have a community that you could go to and get a rapid response as opposed to you putting something out there on days and you're waiting for somebody to get back to you. That's why we got things with WebDriverIO. The community is very strong, so it's easy to get anything in hours, sometimes in minutes as opposed to these.
[00:26:57] Joe Colantonio We are able to write a book where you don't have to resurrect it every year because it changes. Like how Evergreen did you make the book so that people don't have to get holy water and a crucifix after a year or two to get things to work the way you had it written?
[00:27:12] Larry Goddard There you go. That's the next thing with me and Paul. I said to him, I said, look if we go into writing a book and we have code inside there, we have to encode snippets after running in real time. All we need to do is we need to do some stuff and that's another thing with Paul. Paul had this lovely concept of, as soon as it came out. Yes, that is what people was used. No, Paul. We don't do that. Come over here, please. We write the book today. That was exactly what I said. We write the book today and two years down the road somebody will realize Oh here's the book. Let me get this code. And it just wouldn't work. Why? Because everything has changed as they go along, what do I say? Let's fix that one time. If somebody picks up this book 10 years from now, they must know that this code out. It must still work.
[00:27:53] Paul Grossman I hope so. We actually tested against three websites. We've got the generic elements using the-internet.herokuapp. That's the right one. The Internet was where they got just basic objects. Then we're looking at some of the actual companies that do give us actual objects and interacting with those. Lastly, I've got the Candy Mapper website, which is backed by GoDaddy. We actually interact and play with a lot of different environments, try to make this thing and all that stuff. You do to make whole to make a good point. I started this a year ago and then two weeks ago I'm like, What's this whole thing getting excited about Chrome for testing? Great. Now I got to figure that out and update my first or second chapter to get that all setup but that's a great feature that I think people have been talking about is that Chrome for testing now automatically keeps Chrome driver and chrome in sync and you don't have to go crazy with it.
[00:28:53] Larry Goddard And then too, you're locking in all the nodes on all modules you are pulling in from NPM. You're locked. I mean so they may change over the years but because this is a book and the code would be out there forever, literally. When you pull it, it will still work because we lock it in the doors. We are locking up into whatever is the latest at the point before the book publishes our update at all for that particular thing and then just lock in there. And after that, we run it two years from now and just pull those versions of all those things, and those still work. So we went off the holy water and mixed up all this kind of thing.
[00:29:33] Joe Colantonio It's like a vampire will live forever. I love it.
[00:29:37] Larry Goddard Exactly.
[00:29:39] Paul Grossman I have a vampire. I do have a vampire. This is it right here. This is my vampire. It's an Amiga 600 vampire. And just like when you meet a real vampire in real life, the first thing you say is, Wait, did you die like, 40 years ago? Still working, it has a hypnotic layer. It actually outputs HDMI on there and like a real vampire, it can transform into an Apple IIGS and has all those games plus the Amiga games on this.
[00:30:12] Joe Colantonio Okay, Paul, Larry, before we go, is there one piece of actual advice you can give to someone to help fix their most scary automation testing efforts? And what's the best way to find or contact you? Let's start with Larry.
[00:30:24] Larry Goddard Okay. For me, one of like I would like to tell people is don't believe the hype. And by that, I mean always, I got a lot of things come on and go. Always do some POCs proof of concept of what you have all this new stuff that come in and all only new things you would hear about. 2 POCs before you make a what you call? Formed decision as opposed to just making. I said, Oh, this is new. Let me use this, and you use it, Nah, do some POCs and then you realize that a lot of it is hype, point of concern. Like we talked about earlier, BUN, real hype fizzled out to be nothing in the end. And also that you could contact me at LinkedIn and I am on Twitter as well and I'm on YouTube. I'm on YouTube. And the handle remained the same. LarryG_01. So you can just find me all you do on YouTube Larryg_01. You can find me on Twitter. Well, now let me rephrase. Oops, sorry, sorry, sorry. Your X and you do? Larryg_01 and I'll be there. And if they're going to LinkedIn I'm just Larry G. And being the creator of klassiJS. And it's all out there. The link for KlassiJs/GitHub is klassijs/klassijs and you'll find that is just there.
[00:31:57] Joe Colantonio Awesome. We'll have all these links in the show notes as well. And Paul?
[00:33:18] Thanks again for your automation awesomeness. The links of everything we value we covered in this episode. Head in over to testguild.com/a472. And if the show has helped you in any way, why not rate it and review it in iTunes? Reviews really help in the rankings of the show and I read each and every one of them. So that's it for this episode of the Test Guild Automation Podcast. I'm Joe, my mission is to help you succeed with creating end-to-end, full-stack automation awesomeness. As always, test everything and keep the good. Cheers.
[00:33:55] Hey, thanks again for listening. If you're not already part of our awesome community of 27,000 of the smartest testers, DevOps, and automation professionals in the world, we'd love to have you join the FAM at Testguild.com and if you're in the DevOps automation software testing space or you're a test tool provider and want to offer real-world value that can improve the skills or solve a problem for the Guild community. I love to hear from you head on over to testguild.info And let's make it happen.
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