Leading Quality with Ronald Cummings-John

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About This Episode:

Crushing wrong concepts about quality and laser-focusing on a redefined version of it to bring success to your companies. “Because you need to be thinking about quality from a higher strategic level, from the offset rather than an afterthought”.
In this episode, Ronald Cummings-John, author of Leading Quality: How Great Leaders Deliver High-Quality Software and Accelerate Growth, will share how to influence and align your company’s definition of quality so that you can deliver the best possible experience to your clients. Learn about John's quality narratives that he came across while working with the most innovative leaders. Discover the techniques successful leaders use to make their strategic decisions. Find out which tools will ensure that your team is in alignment for achieving common goals. Use valuable insights to turn a quality team into a more revenue-generating team. Become a quality leader who can master strategic quality decisions and lead your team to accelerate growth.

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About Ronald Cummings-John

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After selling his first startup, Ronald Cummings-John is now scaling up Global App Testing, a VC-backed, crowdsourced testing platform with over 25,000+ professional testers globally. Global App Testing was selected as one of the fastest-growing tech companies in the UK. His passion for quality assurance has taken him around the world, and he has worked with QA and product teams from top companies including Etsy, Microsoft, King, Spotify, and eBay. Ronald is co-author of the book, “Leading Quality: How Great Leaders Deliver High-Quality Software and Accelerate Growth.”

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Full Transcript

Ronald Cummings-John

Joe [00:01:40] Hey Ronald! Welcome to the Guild.

Ronald [00:01:42] Hello Joe! So pumped to be here.

Joe [00:01:46] Awesome, awesome to have you on the show. I think I've been trying to get on the show for a few years now. I think I invited you last year and we somehow missed. So I'm really excited to have you on the show today. Before we dive into it, though, Ronald, is there anything I missed in your bio that you want to Guild to know more about?

Ronald [00:02:00] I mean, that was an incredible bio, so thank you. I have nothing really to add to that other than I am super excited to be here just to really talk about this concept of leading quality in our companies because I think it's a conversation that is missed. You know, one of the reasons we wrote the book is because all the other books we saw weren't talking about leading quality. They'll talk about how to test. And so I'm excited to answer all of the questions that you've got in your mind.

Joe [00:02:31] Awesome. So I really love how you have real-world experience and you're also a co-founder of a company. So I think you have the best of both worlds. You probably deal with a lot of companies, a lot of customers, a lot of situations. So working with these other companies or seeing how they're doing things, did you see a lack of leading quality in those organizations? Are there things you think you took from these companies that were maybe best in breed and then you're trying to still it to other companies like what was the genesis of why you're so passionate about leading quality? Have you started writing books to address that issue?

Ronald [00:03:01] A great question, because if I think about the real genesis, it goes before we even began thinking about writing the book, and that was my own personal perception of quality. So this isn't the first company that we ran. My co-founder Owais Peer and I had run a company before this. And one of the reasons why I would say that a company had failed was slightly related to not having enough of a focus on quality. So to a certain degree, we had felt the pain of the problem of not thinking about quality correctly. And then fast forward to us running global app testing. Like you said, we began working with some of the top companies in the world. And it was interesting because the people in those companies were always asking us how do everyone else look at quality and how do they lead quality inside their company? And then people were asking us what should my quality strategy be for those that had seen that we were working with all of these great companies. And so I think when you get asked a question continually, a thought runs at your head that you say, well, why don't I just write this down so I can share it with more people. And so Owais and I foolishly had thought that we'd be able to write a book in about six months. And we then went on a two-year journey to really start to look at this concept of what makes great quality leaders in their companies. And it was a mixture of having the contacts and our own customers, but also reaching out to all the people in the industry and beginning to understand what was working and what wasn't. And then we wanted to distill that down into ideas that you could use as you move into a leadership position. Because when we begin to look at this concept of quality leadership, I put an analogy to the way that the sales industry has evolved over time. If we go way back in the sales industry, you used to just hire a salesperson and that salesperson would do everything. They'll do the cold calling. They'll do the closing, etc.. And then the sales industry hit a point where they said, let's get a sales development rep or someone to do cold calling or cold outreaching so that we can utilize the salesperson for the high value closing at the end. And then as that industry has evolved, there are now things like sales up six, etc.(??) And so there is an evolution of complexity and maturity that's happened across the way that we sell. And when you come into looking at things from a quality perspective and the quality industry, we will know that quality pretty much started off as a thing to do at the end. But as we've gone over time, the level of work and intricacy that comes into looking and thinking about quality has evolved. And, you know, a lot of the work that you promote around the automation piece is a huge part of that. But as we've moved even further, a lot of those people who maybe 10, 15 years ago were in junior positions are now in leadership positions. So they have that mindset that they had at the beginning, but they now have the ability to help make change happen in the company. And so now for me is really the period where we are beginning to look at how do you leave things and how do you start to make your whole company think about quality in a more strategic perspective.

Joe [00:06:19] Awesome. So I definitely want to dive a little more into the qualities of leadership. But you did mention something that piqued my interest. It was that your first company failed because you thought you didn't address quality correctly. I just want to touch on that really quickly. What part of not addressing quality you felt made your previous company fail?

Ronald [00:06:38] So if I remember back at that period, there was a huge culture around Lean Startup and the concept of fail fast, build an MVP, etc.. But what wasn't really ever talked about in the whole concept is you still need to build a quality product, even if it's the minimal viable product. And I think at that period in time, we had focused more on just building things, not on testing it or having more of a quality perspective of the thing that we are building. And now it is very evident when you go into a company and you can tell the maturity of the leadership team, if this is their first rodeo, running a company or running a product or if they have done it before, really based on those conversations. Because a lot of times the idea of investing in quality comes when you've had a problem. So most people don't care about it until there is some fire or they get in a phone call from a customer or they're personally spotting the issue. And that's when people like, oh, there's a quality issue. We should be looking at this, what's going on? And they don't realize that you need to be thinking about quality from a higher strategic level, from the offset rather than an afterthought.

Joe [00:07:51] Do you think that somehow it hampers people from taking on a you know they start off as junior but actually growing into a quality lead because it's not seen on organization that's like a revenue-generating activity. So, therefore, they may feel like it's a dead-end job. I may focus on other areas. So maybe that's why there's a gap in quality leadership.

Ronald [00:08:07] Hey, I think that's a very true statement. And I want to pick up on a part of what you just said, which was that it's more, it's considered sometimes more of a cost center. And one of the things that fascinated me as we did a lot of these interviews with people was how the more innovative leaders that I met, they focused on asking the question of how can I turn the quality team into a more revenue-generating team? And I sometimes talk about this concept of a quality narrative. And there are three main quality narratives that we came across. The first was the narrative around ownership, who owns quality inside the company? And in most cases, well, in a desired case, you would have the whole company having a form of responsibility around that narrative and owning quality of the product rather than just being something for the automation engineer or QA engineer to deal with. Then the second narrative that exists inside companies around quality is the how-to test narrative, where everyone has this wonderful view of what they should be doing. And sometimes there's a silver bullet mentality where people assume that if we just do this one thing if we just implement this automation framework, we will have solved all of our quality problems. And you know more than anyone else that that isn't really the case. And if you ask those same people, you know, can you cook a meal? They'll remember that there are many different ways to cook a meal. There are many different ways to play a sport. And testing is also the same. There are many different ways to do it. But the other thing that comes on the how-to test narrative is when people have a view of something they could do or they see something that someone else has done and they try to copy it without the context and context plays such a big part in coming up with how you think about quality, your quality strategy and how you deal with your team because you have different maturity products, different maturity team members, and all of these things start to play into how you should be making decisions. But the final narrative is my favorite, and it's the one that I feel we don't talk about the most. This idea of a value narrative. Now, there are many different ways to look at this. My favorite two is, is asking how much value do we provide into our businesses? And are we a cost center or could we become a revenue-generating center? When I say that, the people, they look at me like, what are you talking about? We shouldn't be looking at quality from a revenue perspective. But there was a situation that happened in our company one time that completely changed the way that I thought about all of this. We were doing a test for a company in Indonesia. And as we did the test, the testers had reported back that there was a problem in the sign-up flow. And the signup flow basically had that the user had to enter their first name, last name, and their email address is compulsory. Now, to everyone, that seemed like a very normal thing. But what was pointed out is that in Indonesia, not everyone has a surname. So by making that field compulsory, you have basically limited the number of people that could sign up. So after we did the testing and for a little bit of jostling the engineers and it all fits into the issue. They saw their growth skyrocket. And that was the first point in that particular company where management, like, stood up and they were like, what is wow, this quality thing could actually help us. And I completely understand that not every situation is going to be like that. But what that opened our eyes to was what happens when you get your teams thinking about how they could contribute to either the company's core growth metric, in this case, it was that sign-ups or that company's revenue. And we started to find so many interesting companies that were doing just that. They were looking at what the core metric is for their whole business, and they were having their engineering and quality teams focus on moving that metric. And that was just so different from what we'd seen before. And so I often say that in most cases, when I hear people talking about these sort of value narrative, they often talk about risk mitigation and it has a strong risk mitigation factor. They sometimes talk about the savings they might make, but they never talk about the revenue potential that might be there. And I believe that people should reverse that stance and the reason why we reverse that and we say, hey, stop to think about the revenue potential even if that's just describing what you are doing in terms of the monetary saving you're making the company. What that does is that begins to elevate the conversation because CEOs don't always care about how many bugs were reported last week. They care about the metrics that are more business-related. And so if we can get more of the people in our industry to talk about things from a business perspective, we start to have so much more elevation in our roles and we start to contribute so much more. And when you can contribute so much more, you can see the contribution you're making. I mean, that's what, that's such a strong part of job fulfillment in and of itself.

Joe [00:13:19] I love that concept. I'm just thinking back on my career at a large, large enterprise. We used to have these conversations like we're finding all these issues in testing and the staging environments, but they only counted things that went to production. So we never able to show the management, high-level management, look, we caught these issues. It was just, “We caught it. Yey for us!” But we never bubbled it up in a way that was understandable to upper management. So would you recommend having a dashboard with revenue savings? Like any time you find a bug in testing or a stage and you kind of assign a value to it, maybe okay we saved, QA saved,  you know, X amount of dollars before it went to production. Is that something you recommend or is that a little overboard?

Ronald [00:13:59] Well, it all depends on your resources and time for doing any of these things. But then let's talk about this for a second and let's talk about this idea of looking at the metric and what can you do about it as a team. So there are three main types of growth metrics that you would probably have inside your company. And a growth metric is a metric that is the point where the value the customer gets value out of what they're using your product for. So let's take for example if you are running some kind of social media company. More than likely you're there trying to get people's attention so you might have what we call an attention-based metric. So in most cases, it's usually daily active users, the user goes to your platform to do something. You can count the number of users that get there and you're probably providing value to them. If you think about, you know, a company like Airbnb, the value is created when someone who wants a property is connected with someone who has a property and they make a booking. So for them, they have a growth metric that is often around the number of nights booked. But if you're in a bit more of a B2B sort of environment, they usually have a more productivity-based metric. And if we look at companies like Slack, they had worked out that if they can get a company to send 2000 messages, there was a ninety-three percent likelihood for them to become a long term customer. I mean, that is just God bless the data scientist that found that out, right? But there was a company they started to focus on, okay, so what are we doing to grow that metric? And what you often find is once you're clear on what that metric is, that is the core thing that is helping to drive your company or your particular product inside that company. You then get your team to work with the aim to move that metrics. So the decisions that they make, those micro-decisions they're making on a daily basis are about is this thing moving that metric? And we all in every job have too many things to do. And by keeping this laser focus, it helps our teams a lot. It helps our teams just be in a much better-focused position. Now, in terms of the question of do you do that via a dashboard, etc., we have found some teams and they focus on having a dashboard that they're looking at as an OKR for their team. But what they quickly realize is it's not just the QA person that is involved in making that happen. It's a cross-functional effect. And this brings us back up to the ownership narrative, which is true. It is not the QA person or the automation engineers responsibility for the whole of this product. You have to work as a team. But again, every win that they find, they talk about it in that language. And when they are trying to make a decision of what to try out or what to fix, they are making that decision with the context of which of these are going to have the biggest impact on that metric. And again, it's all about that micro those micro ways of thinking. They start to add up over time and then, yes, completely shouting about those big wins when you do start to have those situations like the one in Indonesia.

Joe [00:17:05] Well okay, I think that makes sense. So, once again, back to my example. We dealt with radiologists. And radiologists make money by the amount of studies they can get through in a day. So if we had a metric saying we could speed up that process for them by five seconds, 10 seconds a minute, they'd probably be a more persuasive metric to say, look, we're saving our radiologist X amount of time. Therefore, quality is getting better because they're gonna be happier. When we use the product more, they're going to make more money.

Ronald [00:17:31] Precisely. And what that ultimately does there also is it gets you away from thinking about what we are doing from an engineering s (??)  metric perspective and back to the most fundamental thing around quality, which is the customer. I really enjoyed that we were doing the research looking at history because there's this guy called Ray Dalio who spends his life looking to see when and how history repeats itself. So he runs one of the biggest headquarters (??) in the world. And they can, they predict when recessions are going to happen with like a stupid percent accuracy. And so I was trying to go, how has history repeated itself with the way that we work from an engineering perspective? And as you start to look at what quality even is and how it got set up, you end up finding yourself going back to like World War II when bombs were dropping in factories. So, as they were manufacturing the bombs, they were exploding in the factories. And that obviously is a huge problem if you run a manufacturing company. So they started to add inspection into the process to make sure that the bombs were okay. But then after the war, the pan was trying to work out how do they rebuild their economy. And they went heavy into the manufacturing world. And as we all know, many of the manufacturing principles of KAIZEN and LEAN all came from that manufacturing side. And if you look really carefully at the principles that we use to develop software, they mirror quite closely the principles that we use to manufacture software. And even if you look at many of the KanBan boards, etc., that we're using in development, and they'll come from the same LEAN manufacturing period. Now, once you've got that in your mind, you then start to look at how did they look at quality, and what was the evolution of quality at your work? And it started off that they were just inspecting things, as we were saying. But down the line came this guy called Juran, and he loved trying to understand how to make things better. And he was like a full fiber of total quality management. And he's actually the guy that influenced a lot of Steve Jobs thinking, made Steve Jobs the guy that we know who loves having such a high-quality product. And the cool thing that Juran made all of the manufacturing companies rethink was instead of focusing on how we manufacture, focus on what the customer actually wants to do. And so when I look at where we are in our industry, we're seeing this shift. First, we focus quite heavily on where things work from an engineering perspective and the engineering metrics. But we are now moving into this point where it's like, what does the customer actually want? And like you said in your example if you can have a metric where you're focusing on speeding up that person's time for them to do their role, then all of a sudden you have a more valuable product.

Joe [00:20:29] Absolutely. So I just want to tie this all back together with the book. So for folks who are following along, they definitely can learn more within the book “Leading Quality”. So far, I think your book is broken down into three main sections. The first is becoming a quality leader. The second part is mastering your strategic quality decisions. I think the third is leading your team to accelerate growth. Most of what we went over so far is covered in the first section of becoming a quality leader. So I just want to dive into the other two. The second one was mastering your strategic quality decisions. I think you kicked that off with a chapter on automation. So I personally love automation. I consider myself more of a technical testing tools guy and people come to me after they have all quality and everything worked out. So what are the things people get wrong with automation or some common misperceptions you think maybe tripped people up with automation that may impact our quality overall?

Ronald [00:21:20] When I think about automation, I love it because I am the guy who wants to buy everything because it has the word technology on it.

Joe [00:21:29] Yeah.

Ronald [00:21:30] I just this week have been looking at bikes and I said to myself, you know, I'm going to get an e-bike. But then I saw this, e-bike that also had an app. And if the bike gets stolen, they will be able to find it on the app and they will go and hunt for it. And so I am persuaded by technology and marketing as much and if not more than anybody else, right? But one of the things that I am fully aware of is that most marketing messages are over-bloated and the marketing messages are created because people need to grow their company and acquire customers. And so a lot of the time, the messages that we are given around automation are one-sided. Let's say they don't paint the full picture. And what I often see is people have a view of automation that it's close to that silver bullet and that it will be able to solve all of their challenges and it will reduce, if not eliminate, all manual work needed inside the company. And that's not true, right? And I think when you start to look at the work that is needed even to maintain and have an automation infrastructure, you start to rethink it. But people don't always look at the total cost of their decisions that they're trying to make. And so for me, that ends up being more of the challenges around automation than anything else. I often ask myself two questions when talking to people about it. The first thing is, can you actually automate a thing? And in most cases, you can. But in a lot of cases, you can't. But you can't always automate various forms of exploratory work or various insights you might get about the customer experience. But then the second question is, should you automate it? I am again, the kind of person who would opt for automating something, even though automating it will take longer than actually just doing it manually and I don't even need to use it again. And so really trying to understand when you should actually automate it and if you should automate it, it becomes more of a key when thinking for it rather than just saying, yes, I should automate it definitely. And I'm very much on this. There are two books I read recently. There was one from Ray Dalio, this book called Principles, which was all about how do we look at the world. And the second was a book called Seeking Wisdom, which looks at how Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger, the thinking frameworks and thinking models that they use as they have built their empires. And the core message that both of those authors ended up portraying, both hugely successful people, was that in most cases when we're about to make a decision, we do not have the full truth. And we have to actually have a really trying to look at the full picture of a situation which you can only either do by having various mental models that you look through or speaking to various experts around you. And that could be within your company or colleagues or friends or people like yourselves to give you the full picture of a situation. And so the whole second section of this book starts to look at some strategic questions that you might have to ask. So everything from this concept of how and when should you automate things and what are some of the tradeoffs and calculations that you might do around that? All the way to looking at the maturity of your product. A lot of times people, again, assume that they should use a certain tool or they should do a certain form of testing. But this is completely related to the maturity of your product. If I think about the early stages of a product, that startup phase, oftentimes automation makes a lot of sense because the product is adjusting and changing so much. That might not be the most efficient use of your time. And of course, there are different levels of automation, different types of automation that you could, they could deal with and also you deal more with the unit test too much maybe more front end automation in this case. But your strategy becomes very different as you are moving to more of a scale-up. You've just really received extra funding or signoff to really scale these products up. Then you're really trying to make sure at that stage that things are as streamlined as possible. And that's where you're probably going to want to get in as much automation as you can during that period. But then as you develop past that, you can have more mature products. You have to then reassess what's important for us to do and how should we test things at this stage. And one of the things that I saw as we spoke to some of these people was that they continually were reevaluating their quality strategy because the environment around them had changed. Either their product had changed, the customer trends had changed, or their team skills and the people on the team had changed. And with all of that new information, you might need to work slightly differently. And I was speaking yesterday with a senior person on an e-commerce company, and he was saying to me that he has a lot of people in his team who he called it a legacy, have a legacy mindset, which means they don't believe in most of the things that we are currently talking about on this call in terms of the fact that quality should be everyone should be involved in it, et cetera. And the thing that I was trying to make sure that he thinks about is maybe it's not that he has to change their thinking, but he should aim to try and help them to understand that the things around have changed which means now is a time to reassess and then you take them on the reassessing journey rather than saying we should just change everything. They need that context that everything helps around us change. And we're now in a new phase that involves another touch. Want to look at how should we, what tools, what strategic decisions should we make to get the quality right, and our product.

Joe [00:27:36] Absolutely. So rather than forcing them, persuading them, and I think that's one of your sections as you know to become really a quality leader in your company, you need to come more a student of persuasion and influence rather than just give them a negative term like you're all legacy engineers. It's like okay, let me persuade and influence them so they make the decisions themselves. And then that makes a better culture of quality rather than forcing it. Sounds like, I don't know.

Ronald [00:28:01] Yeah. No, 100 percent. One of the things I find really funny is the idea that some people feel that persuasion or influence is a dirty term. And I think that comes a lot from people with a more technical background and I personally used to feel exactly the same. But then you asked them how many times you have to persuade people in your day to day life outside of work. If you have a child, if you have a partner or a spouse please tell me that you don't have to persuade at some point. Our lives are full of having to influence and persuade people. So by learning those type of skills, you are not only helping yourself in your work environment, you're helping yourself in your life environment. And one of the cool things that all of these books around that include persuasion talk about is understanding the person that you're trying to persuade. You know, where are they? What are their goals and what are their fears? And if you can start to talk in terms of those goals and fears, it's interesting how if you can show people that what you're talking about is helping them do more of the things that they want and stopping and reducing the things that they don't like they often more they come along on the journey a lot more. And the other thing that is very key is you think about persuasion, is thinking through your argument logically enough, particularly when we're working in environments with people who aren't logical minded. If you can't provide a logical explanation as to why something should change other than you haven't heard about it or you think it's a great idea. You know, why should they rethink the way that they're thinking? And so the more that we spend looking at this principle of persuasion, I think the better we will be in all of our careers. When people ask me what is one piece of advice I should give them, in life it is just learn and learn more about this skill set because it will fundamentally change your worldview. And you'll also just enjoy spotting how much influence persuasion happens in your day to day, either without you knowing.

Joe [00:30:10] Absolutely. Very well. So the last part of the book is on, as I mentioned, leading your team to accelerate growth. So really quick, like, what is this chapter about that people should really get the book to learn more about? And LEAN Quality, how great leaders deliver high-quality software and accelerate growth?

Ronald [00:30:28] Okay through three quick things. That is the final section, which is actually my favorite section about. Number one, we've already talked about it. How do you work out your growth metric? How do you start to get your team to align more to the direction of the company so that you can start to persuade people higher up in the company around you as to what to do? The second area looks at this concept of local personas, and I think we are probably all familiar with personas from a marketing and product perspective. They create these wonderful views of a potential customer, but they are usually pretty broad. They might have like marketing Mary, enterprise Aaron, etc.. But for us, from an engineering perspective, we, every single customer that uses our product is a persona which means for us we have thousands of personas we have to deal with because every single operating system, device, location is a persona that we have to consider because we need our product working in the wild for real people. So as you start to understand what your local personas are, number one is you can start to have more of that revenue-based focus that we talked about at the start. But also you can start to rethink about how you test to really understand and capture what's happening in those local personas. So we're seeing companies do this differently. So companies like Airbnb, the thing that they do is they fly their engineers to different locations in order for them to understand what's happening for the different localized versions of their application and to see what that feels like for their users. Companies like Google, they use their existing customer base because they have so many, obviously. And so for things like Google Maps, they would have a team of people all across the world. So when they wanted to launch the 3D, I know you have used it where you're kind of like VR looking at a street. They had all of their local users test that for them locally, but obviously, not everyone has that sort of setup. And so there are companies like ourselves with the kind of thing that we do, a global testing, which is just supporting people with testing globally or getting those devices tested that they couldn't before. But the core concept there is don't just think about these broad personas, but really understand that every user that touches your product expects it to work perfectly for them. So how do you start to think about that from a testing perspective? And then the final part, I actually wanted the final part of this book to be the beginning of the book but our editors said no. And it's really about vision because we all join a company because we have a vision for ourselves. But in order to be a great leader in anything, firstly, you have to understand the vision for your company and you usually go, I really like the vision for this company, but I don't think people care that much about the vision of the company that they're with. What they care about is the vision for themselves. And the company is just a vehicle by which they feel they will achieve that personal vision. And if people don't feel that the company will allow them to achieve their personal vision, they leave. And that's how you know that a person's personal vision is so important. So you as a leader, what is your own personal vision for you, what you want to do with your life? And then is the company that you're in going to make that happen? Then, once you're clear on that are you personally excited about where you're going to go in this company and what where you're going to take this company as a leader in that company? Then you can start to look at the department and your team and you can begin to set a vision for that team and get them excited about it. And we talk through all of that and anyone that gets that, we have worksheets for them to go through all of this. But I always believe that the vision piece is the starting point of everything because if you're not clear on where you are trying to go personally, nothing else makes sense.

Joe [00:34:20] One hundred percent. Absolutely. Okay Ronald, before we go, is there one piece of actionable advice you can give to someone to help them through quality testing efforts? And what's the best way to find and contact you to get our hands on leading quality?

Ronald [00:34:32] So if I was to give one piece of advice, it would be what we talked about earlier, which is focus on how you can become a better influencer and whether that is finding the people inside your company who you think are good at it and learning from them wherever that is, reading some of the books that we always suggest. And we'll probably leave some of the cliff notes of people. And really focus on that because that has nothing to do with this job you're in. This is to do with your life. And if you can get more skilled at those skillsets for your life, then so many new possibilities open up. And then when it comes to finding myself so you can get the book on Amazon or any bookstore that you use. We also have the audio version of the book, which is myself reading the book. And I just, before recording the book, I was listening to a comedian called Kevin Hart's audiobook. And Kevin Hart ad-libs throughout the whole book. I'm like is he actually reading this book? And so we decided that we would instead of just reading the book in a very boring fashion, we thought we would add flavor to the audiobook. So if you have audible check it out and you'll have a lot of fun listening to that. It's like a three and a half-hour listening. And I always say to people, if you like the stuff that we do, our e-mails are at the end of the book. Email us. We'd love to continue the conversation about this because this is really about creating a movement, an adjustment of thinking. And we just want to help support anyone that is trying to do that. So if you need any help around it, you want to talk about it, you can get in contact with us and we will more than gladly talk about it. And then if you like what you've read, you know, give it a five-star review, because that helps other people understand that this is worth reading. And one last thing is, if anyone needs help with anything related to crowdsource testing or just reassessing at this point in time, now that everyone is working remote, we often help people and just have conversations around that. But we'd love to talk to you if that could be useful. You could find us at globalapptesting.com.


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