How Vibium Could Become the Selenium for AI Testing with Jason Huggins

[00:00:26] In a land of testers, far and wide they journeyed. Seeking answers, seeking skills, seeking a better way. Through the hills they wandered, through treacherous terrain. But then they heard a tale, a podcast they had to obey. Oh, the Test Guild Automation Testing podcast. Guiding testers with automation awesomeness. From ancient realms to modern days, they lead the way. Oh, the Test Guild Automation Testing podcast. With lutes and lyres, the bards began their song. A tune of knowledge, a melody of code. Through the air it spread, like wildfire through the land. Guiding testers, showing them the secrets to behold. Oh, the Test Guild Automation Testing podcast. Guiding testers with automation awesomeness. From ancient realms to modern days, they lead the way. Oh, the Test Guild Automation Testing podcast. Oh, the Test Guild Automation Testing podcast. With lutes and lyres, the bards began their song. A tune of knowledge, a melody of code. Through the air it spread, like wildfire through the land. Guiding testers, showing them the secrets to behold.

[00:00:30] Hey, it's Joe, and today's episode is one you don't want to miss. My guest is Jason Huggins, the person who first started the original versions of Selenium, Appium, and Sauce Labs, and he's back with a brand new project that's already creating a bunch of waves online, Vibium, which is an AI-based test automation tool. If you've seen and heard rumors and want to know what Vibum really is, how it compares to Selenium and why the testing world is already buzzing about it, stick around. You'll hear directly from Jason on what Vibium can do, why it's going to be open source, and how it could possibly reshape software testing in the age of AI. You don't want to miss it. Check it out.

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[00:02:13] Hey Jason, welcome back to The Guild.

[00:02:14] Jason Huggins Hey, Joe.

[00:02:16] Joe Colantonio Yeah, I think it's been 2018. It's the last time you actually officially been on the show. Th ere's a lot of stuff going on around the internet. When I look for Jason Huggins nowadays, talking about this thing called Vibium and like, I don't know what's real, what's not, what going on. I don't know if you're trolling people. I guess the whole thing, like what is Vibium? What is this all about?

[00:02:36] Jason Huggins Vibium is Selenium for AI. Like that's it, full stop. Whatever we did with Selenium for the web, whatever we did Appium for mobile, we are doing with AI. And if anything you could summarize my career is that like whenever a platform comes up, I do whatever I do and try to make a little testing tool that rides that wave. Obviously the AI is the next wave. And so Vibium is my kind of shot at articulating this, turning this weird, fuzzy metaphor into reality.

[00:03:11] Joe Colantonio Is it the successor of Selenium in that you're building off, the protocols that Selenium has built and all the hard work that's gone into it? Are you just starting brand new with this?

[00:03:22] Jason Huggins Brand new. Yes and no. Oh, man. Reason why I wanted to this and I apologize to everyone. This is kind of like raw version one. I have not perfected my elevator pitch. Or if you will, we are right now in a building that is like 500 stories tall and it's a very long elevator ride. By the end of the month, it'll be a shorter building, I swear. But another way to look at this, I only have like these bumper sticker phrases, unfortunately. But another one to say is whatever I'm doing, this is my WebDriver BiDi awareness campaign. Hey, if you hadn't heard about the WebDriver BiDi spec, you should go check it out. But fun fact, the Puppeteer team put out a blog post last year that they went all in on the WebDriver BiDi specs. The Puppeteer is like full fledged WebDriver BiDi. Also Firefox, they deprecated their CDP, their clone developer tools thing and they also now support WebDriver Bidi.

[00:04:22] Joe Colantonio Alright, hold up. For those that don't know, what is WebDriver BiDi?

[00:04:27] Jason Huggins The summary is, it learned all of the lessons, or most of them, of what made Puppeteer and Playwright amazing. And that was the Chrome Developer Protocol, the CDP. And it just made it fast. So WebDriver, the first version, the classic, they call it, is a REST API. You send a request. You get a response back. But it's flaky, and it's an expensive, chatty protocol. There's a lot of stuff. It's basically HTTP versus WebSockets. It really, it's just WebSockets. There's kind of a nerdy thing. If you haven't even read WebSocket, it like, Oh, there's more stuff to go in. But the reason that Puppeteer was amazing. Playwright was amazing was because they're using a WebSocket based protocol. Full stop. And WebDriver wasn't granted WebDrivers, sorry, WebSockets didn't exist when we started Selenium and WebDriver and whatever. So like, Hey, cut us a little slack, I guess, whatever, but we're rapid, we're not going away. The WebDriver BiDi effectively is standardizing what was a proprietary protocol that only existed in Chrome. So making that thing a thing that works standard. WebDriver BiDi is like, if you wanted Selenium to effectively, sorry to be blunt, stop sucking. One of the things, or don't be so flaky, one of the thing you would do if you're gonna start over from scratch is use a WebSocket based way to talk to the browser. That's what WebDriver BiDi is. It's been built into the Selenium existing libraries. It's in Selenium libraries. It's, in Puppeteer now. There's even an issue on the Playwright GitHub repo that they're investigating it. You could argue that I'm at a base level at a fundamental level is that I'm doing a from scratch implementation of the WebDriver BiDi spec. Just, that's just the JavaScript and Python. There's going to be a library that just fulfills that spec. But if you had the luxury of now knowing you have magic AI robot technology that you could have put in there, instead of bolting it on, you could just assume you now have occasionally, you can jump out, pull the parachute and ask some magic to do something for you. If you had access to that, you would then maybe there's some points along the implementation path where you would say, hold on time out. Let's ask the magic. If that makes sense. And we're all in real time. I have some opinions. I'm not saying I'm right, but I have some opinions and I have some hunches and intuitions. And everyone is already kind of preordained that this is like the future. And I've kind of even in my YC application saying like, I'm creating the successor to Selenium. So that's like on me, but that's what I kind of promised to people. I hope whatever, I hope it is, but I haven't done it yet.

[00:07:14] Joe Colantonio Jason, what about MCP server? Isn't that the next big thing?

[00:07:18] Jason Huggins MCP, Model Context Protocol. That's not even a year old. Some people are saying that is the thing that will be the merger between the AI and all of the things. There's a Playwright MCP. There's Selenium MCP that Angie Jones made, which is amazing. I talked with the developer at Stripe, and we were talking about the MCP stuff, and he said, oh yeah, but it's expensive. I was like, oh, yeah, I know, man, the tokens and it's expense. He's like, no, no. Time. Say more. And it's like, no, no. If you have the LLMs, even if you have a crazy, ridiculous $30,000 rig on your desktop, which actually is literally financially expensive, it still is slower. And when you're at a scale like Stripe, asking the AI to do literally everything, like open the page, do a thing, click a button, look for a button. Like that's the thinking thing. Click the button. I'll have to think about how to click. If every interaction back and forth is back and forth over the MCP channel. It is expensive in time. This is my opinion and I could be wrong because I'm not an MCP server. Like who am I? I'm just like the argument is that I don't think MCP will rule the world unless either they get the time down to zero or LLMs, some people are making the bet that actually LLMS will just keep getting faster and faster and faster. Like, yes, they are slow, you have two cosmic problems, they hallucinate. There's a making a stuff up problem. And then there's like a slow problem. And everyone is kind of assuming that there's some kind of vague Moore's law about AI that they'll get like smarter, less hallucinating, and just faster, full stop. But there's also a thing where you can kind of like, well, actually, especially in software testing determinism is still kind of a thing that we would prefer to have, whatever. And also fast is still kinda a thing. And if there's like some obvious ways, we can kind of actually just, we don't need to ask a robot to do it because we could just see the button on the screen and I know the coordinates for it. I'm just going to click it over a protocol. I don't have to like have a round trip through a robot to confirm what I can already see. I hope I'm making sense here, but basically like what I'm doing with Vibium is that we'll be talking to the web, like driving a browser of the web driver protocol, and occasionally when you get stuck. Now, with WebDriver, it just bombs out and says, element not found, good luck, have a nice day. That's what everyone actually makes them bail out on WebDrivers saying, screw you guys, I'm out of here. Then you go down and download Playwright, and then it'll say, hey, I don't see the element, but like, hang on. And then you play like the elevator music, and it's like, and then shows up like, oh, hey the button's ready, and you continue. But if you were, extending my metaphor here. T here might be some situations where no matter how long you wait, that element is not going to show up. Like you're just kind of stuck. And that's where potentially you fall back to an AI and say, Hey, I'm stuck, but I might not necessarily want to fail the test cause really actually. This is where I kind of get into the stuff that no one knows about, but this is the thing that might actually be the first version that gets released. The reason why I'm kind of talking about stuck, I use this metaphor of like, if you ask Google Maps to get you to the store. Occasionally as you're driving, it'll say, Oh, Hey, there's a traffic stop or I found a faster route or whatever. It will, in real time tell you there might be a better way to go. And I don't think, well, in a modern context, anyone's really kind of is doing, sorry, take this back. People are working on this. I'm now working on. There's this idea. It's actually an old idea that I'm now bringing back. Another way to summarize what the heck is Vibium. It's really two things. It's at a lower level. There's going to be a library that you can download. It implements the WebDriver spec, WebDriver BiDi spec, it's going to be JavaScript and Python and based on all my survey responses, probably Java, because that's actually huge at a low level. At the high level, we're taking an old idea that's been around forever in academia, but it's never really had its moment in the sun. But I think it will. I'm gonna try to give it its moment and the sun model based testing, like there, it's a kind of a wonky academic thing. I'm rapidly coming back up to speed on this stuff, but it's basically this idea that if you map your app, the automated tests actually just fall out of it. You have it's graph, it's a really kind of wonky stuff. So people accuse me of like, I'm just trolling the internet, there's nothing. It's like, oh my God, there is so much, there are so much stuff that we have to get up to speed and learn on me specifically, but all of us collectively model-based testing works. But it's fatal flaw is that it's tedious and very manual labor intensive to create the model of your app. Because the second you do that. You say, here's these pages and they're connected over things. It's all graph theory, nodes, and edges. You have two nodes. So you have two pages. You have a login page is one node and you have a checkout page on the other one. And they were connected through intermediary other nodes. It's all nodes and edges and those edges and like the academic term that they would use is like a click or a submit button, like there was an action you took to go from one node to the next, right? My metaphor going back to Google, I want what I want Vibium to be is kind of like, I've used this other metaphor and I'm just throwing them out today. Waymo for web apps. Right? So you just get in the car, robot takes the wheel and drives you to the store, right? That's what we want for testing. I want the metaphorical equivalent way, but waymo more for web apps means I want to like go to my laptop as Mr. President business CEO and say, can people buy stuff on my web store? That's the question I want to ask. And just like you would ask Google drive, drive me to the store. What I want for software testing is can people still buy stuff, granted that is probably triggering for a lot of people because what I would say though, is I'm because, cause like, wait a second, no, but like, we actually have to verify that the button is blue. Like all kinds of weird things actually have to happen. I would argue I am adding a new layer to the testing pyramid. And so I'm like, I know I'm triggering to a bunch of people, but I'm also saying there's a new kind of testing that can exist now. It's basically like end to end testing, but like lazy mode, advanced lazy node that you can just kind of say, putting my marketing hat on. Of a marketing phrase like vibe coding that was also only coined last February. It seems like it's been around forever, but it's only this year. It's just as good of a market term as cloud computing, nothing has been, it's equal since the phrase cloud computing. And so as far as a way to communicate whatever is going on with the AI world and the merger of AI and coding, being able to communicate to your friends and family at like Thanksgiving table. It's a phrase that kind of breaks through if you're driving down like the 101 freeway and you see a bullboard it's probably going to have the word vibe coding on it or vibe something right.

[00:14:45] Joe Colantonio All right, I have to ask why the name Vibium I think it's cool. But there's a lot of people out there that really think the name is an actual joke.

[00:14:52] Jason Huggins When people are accusing me of kind of like trolling the internet a month ago and doing all this stuff, I kind of realized that calling this Vibium is a little silly. But also I realized that there's some juice there like there's just from a marketing point of view, there's something going on. That's because like the word Selenium itself was also kind of a dad joke. Here's the other thing. This is effectively my robots are called valet. The last two years I've been using the valet metaphor and the product name for my stuff. Because it's a classy way to drive a car, a valet is nice and French and whatever. And it was like, oh, but I'm web and I'm implementing the WebDriver protocol. And it's the word driver valet. It's perfect. Chef's kiss of like a pun that makes sense. And guess what? No one cares. I put the valet thing out there and just like crickets. And then so I could have called this thing like valet AI or whatever valet or whatever. And I just knew that wasn't going to work. I think there was another thing just on the marketing. I could have. This is also might be triggering to the Selenium committers and you need to go actually have a coffee with them immediately. But we could have called this Selenium 5.0. There is an argument to be made of like, what is Selenion 5.0, cause whatever. Right. And, and this, and there's precedent for this. Google put a huge marketing campaign for HTML 5. They didn't rebrands or fix or call HTML something else. They called we're coming out with HTML 5. It's got a whole bunch of cool stuff. It's about webRTC, all kinds of amazing things. And it's all HTML 5. They did not get rid of the HTML brand. Me without actually having a council of elders meeting about this. I was choosing like, okay, am I going to go all in on making Selenium 5, the phrase, or just Selenium effectively have a branding problem at this point, and I kind of needed to coin a new phrase. And right now it's unfortunate reality, but the Selenium brand, every company, every product, every open source project, whatever has come out. And they've had to take shots at Selenium to say Selenium sucks in X kind of way. Use our stuff because it's better. And the thing is it's not just a marketing thing. Like Selenium actually did have those weaknesses and deficiencies. I'm not saying it's like they're all just a bunch of liar, liars who lie. Like they're whatever, like this is how you market. Like you point out something that is true and you can leverage that into marketing your thing. But everyone's been doing that with Selenium for the last 20 years. And at some point, those hits that you take, it's like a video game at some, those health points. Your counter goes down, whether it was like a legit thing or not. You got dinged. And so the Selenium brand is this also because it's been around for 20 years. Some people say, oh, it's fine, whatever. But that's like what your dad uses to test. But so I just have this marketing thing where it's like, it could be valet. No one cared. I tried to actually, no one cared. I could go have a meeting with the council of elders and say, like, we're going to go in on Selenium 5. Maybe that could still happen, whatever, but I kind of thought like to capture. Basically testing needs like some new juice, like all the juice that could possibly be squeezed out of from Selenium is like it's got all this weird kind of marketing baggage and all kinds of stuff where everyone's taking shots at Selenium and i just kind of figured like I'm doing a new thing but here's the secret it's actually web driver like ta-da ha-ha pull the mask off like the scooby-doo reference thing it's like it's actually Selenium web driver into the hood. But this time it's actually Selenium. And are your pick your favorite AI LLM friend. That is low level. It's WebDriver BiDi and the AI robots doing the things. And when it gets stuck, it's figuring out how to reroute. But to be able to do the reroute, you also effectively need a map of your app. You can't have a self-driving car unless it knows where the roads are. There was a whole separate multi-year project. Hopefully in this case, it won't take multiple years. Google Maps was almost a prerequisite technology, and Google Street View was prerequisite technology to make self-driving cars work. You have to have a navigational, you have to literally, you can't just set sail and go somewhere, or, to not be a metaphor, you can just bring up ChatGPT and say, test my app, buy a thing, like go from, it can open up the front page, and then take an educated guess on what the next step is. And the thing is now you're rolling the dice that it's going to be able to take the correct educated guests every time a new page is loaded. If all you do today, current technology, and it's go to ChatGPT and say, test my site or actually spit out a test, and even if it has access to all the source code, there is a certain kind of a magic too. Like you could analyze the source, but you won't even really know until you run it how to do that. And so you need a map of your app. And so then the question then is like, okay. At one level, the thing that I announced, the library, that's the thing everyone's responding to. It's going to be better at dealing with flakiness. That's gonna be built into it.

[00:19:48] Joe Colantonio Before I go further, how does this relate to automation? How do you create this map, say, for automation testing?

[00:19:55] Jason Huggins And so there was a couple of companies that are working on this. And it's basically what I'm trying to work on is it's, we are bringing model based testing back, but instead of it being a manual process that you have to go create the model and label all the things it's going to be automatically generated for you. Just like Google street view as the way they mapped the world is by just driving a car on every street. They didn't take a satellite view. And draw over the lines. They literally just literally speed run it. They just drove. And so in this case, the not metaphorical equivalent of this is you instrument your app in a way that when people walk through it, events are getting fired and then those are getting stored in database somewhere. You could call this, again, not an original idea, but like maybe when you combine all these things together, it's a thing. Years ago, I used to think about this of like, hey, you have Google Analytics. But its product, it's marketed to marketers, and that just want to see which pages that people are going to, so we know what keywords they're using. But you could take what Google Analytics is and repurpose it to making that a useful tool to developers and testers. But even more specifically, instead of just showing you a pretty graph of like, oh, here's your bounce rate on your first page, and here's people who got all the way down your funnel all the the way to the end. It just spits out a Selenium or whatever flavor of, I guess, Vibium now, test script. It just spitz that out. Right. And then you can click run and it plays. Because you have effectively mapped as people have gone through manually. There's kind of a weird interplay also between manual testing and automation. It's never black and white. It's kind of gray. Because of that manual traffic through your site and it could be in dev or it could in prod, whatever. All those events are getting fired. And AI magic thing is collating that into a test suite. It's effectively creating your, the map of your app, but it's also mapping workflows. So not just where the streets are and where the buildings are, but where the paths are like, where are the most common, what's the best route between A and B, right? That's the thing that you can kind of do without AI. This is like graph theory kind of stuff, right. And then you have, okay, now you have the map. Now you actually can. Again, this is actually more statistics than kind of just like code algorithm stuff, not AI magic yet, which means it actually works. And there are reference implementations of model based testing that you can kind of just use. And it's like, before the AI hype wave, it's out there. And you have that. And that's the thing you can then give to an AI tool, basically the self driving car, the self driving browser now can reference that map that was created in a separate process and go from Login page to checkout.

[00:22:51] Joe Colantonio Let me just try to summarize it really quick. I've seen other companies that have like a sniffer in production and it knows real actions users are doing. And so it's shifting right to left because now it knows a model, not only is it a model but it's a real model of what users are really doing with a really touching and because of that, they're able to generate automated tests based on real traffic.

[00:23:16] Jason Huggins Yeah, so that's that. But also, I'm Jason Huggins. So it's going to be open sourced out the wazoo. No secret magic. All of the magic will not be gated behind, like, hey, this is an amazing thing, and it works, and oh my gosh, it's the future, sign here. It's only behind our SaaS service. Just like with the Selenium project where there's reference implementation, for every Sauce Labs, there's a Selenium grid or for every like. That's the Selenium grid implementation has to exist. And a lot of people do run their own Selenium grid and also same thing with Appium, they have their own local lab. They do not have to use sauce labs, Lambda test, BrowserStack, TestingBot. They go down the list. All the guys. I can't name them all. Right. There's so many of them, right, there's so many SaaS players, but there's also open source stuff you can do. There's like the on-prem open source, chocolatey, granola, Portland approved thing that you can run locally. And whatever I'm doing with this is also going to be, there's going to be an on-prem reference implementation that also has implications. That means that we're going to have to make, we're constantly going to be evaluating the, I know it's on open source but it's the open waits. I mean, I would love to have it make, if there was an open source LLM, we'll just use that, but the best we can do right now is the open waits versions. There's Qwen, there's Llama. There's a bunch of them. We're gonna have to first class citizens of whatever we're creating here. There has to be an on-prem local version of the entire stack. All of the magic is available that you do not have to sign here like one lump, yearly contract, whatever. What I'm doing with Vibium is like, there's gonna be an open source implementation of this stuff.

[00:25:11] Joe Colantonio Okay, so now what?

[00:25:13] Jason Huggins I'm just now realizing I've hit a nerve and I now need to just like pay attention and catch up and actually, one, actually release some of the software. But there's also a certain level of like I now need to literally Avenger style assemble the team. I cannot do this on my own. I know there's some kind of like some billionaire VCs are making the joke of like now we're in the era where we can have a billion dollar business with just like 10 like 1 employee or something like that. And there's this weird thing where it's like me and my AI friends could probably do it, but like, I'm too busy shitposting on LinkedIn to pay attention to what's going on with my vibe coding friends over on the left. I still need people to watch the robots from the farming kind of a point of view. I have to get up on you know CNN and give the farming report. Meanwhile, we actually have to have farmers in the field doing stuff as well. There will still be plenty of jobs for humans. I swear to God, because right now, I'm like doing the AI vibe coding robot thing that theoretically is taking all the jobs and I am now freaking the F out because there is now so much work to be done. And I'm only just one dude who can't click enough buttons fast enough on the LinkedIn interface, which of course, professionally, people have been coming out of the woodwork saying, you should probably also close the LinkedIn tab and go back to work. But whatever. That's my story, man.

[00:26:42] Joe Colantonio Awesome. Jason, if people want to learn more, I know you were kind enough to join me at my first Test Guild in the real life event happening in Chicago on September 8th.

[00:26:51] Jason Huggins Yes. Beautiful. Thank you for choosing Chicago for that.

[00:26:52] Joe Colantonio Yeah. Excited for that. Where can people learn more? I guess another piece of confusion that comes in is people are going to Vibium.ai and they're like what is this?

[00:27:04] Jason Huggins We haven't even gotten to that. That is effectively, if you re this, the thought process for that was if I started SauceLabs over again, from scratch, I would do a global decentralized network of devices all around the world and open the source, the snot out of it. Right. It's effectively a distributed network of devices that could run tests. That's why I use the metaphor in various places. Like it's like Uber or Airbnb for testing because you're using idle computing capacity around the world. That was my like previous version of this idea. And that's what that snapshot in time of that's with that website, Vibium.ai is. And then another snapshot in time fast forwarding a little bit was my YC founder video. And then now in the last month, I've kind of realized I've got this kind of math part that's also kind of a prerequisite to I'm working. That is all to say, Vibium.ai. Is the going to be the website that it's this stuff is going to be landing on. Right now, it's not what it should be. I need to lock that down put up a landing page or a capture email thing because it's too distracting. But it's also been interesting to see leaving it up seeing all of whatever people are imagining it is and complaining about it and whatever. And I guess maybe I should be embarrassed. I'm just kind of having fun with it and whatever. I think the best thing you can do is like follow me on like blue sky. Or LinkedIn, actually, right now. And the other one is I would say, like, people should follow me on Noster, because that's also part of phase two. If anything, the best thing for your audience would be, like until there's a better actual home for this thing is see whatever I'm randomly ranting about on LinkedIn, bluesky or Noster ike I'm hugs.bsky, whatever, or you can find me on LinkedIn. Eventually, it'll be Vibium.ai will be the page once we can kind of get around to it. There also is the Vibium. There's going to be a Python package that's already there. That's Vibium. It's just a placeholder. Sorry, like there's only actually like 200 downloads of that thing. And it's literally just like, hello world. That's the code, but I kind of reserved it. And also there's a Vibium package on NPM for JavaScript that that's there. And I just checked. There were 30 downloads as of today and also literally hello world. There's going to be places if you're a nerdy geeky person, it's going to be where you know, find software is available. And then at the CEO level, it's going to be Vibium.ai. Eventually, but right now the website's a little confusing. I'll hopefully fix this by the time this goes live or something. Whatever. I don't know.

[00:29:45] Joe Colantonio I'll have links to all this awesomeness down below.

[00:29:47] Thanks again, Jason, for all your automation awesomness.

[00:29:49] Joe Colantonio For the links to everything I've already covered in this episode, head on over to testguild.com/A559. And after almost 600 episodes, if you haven't already, can you please rate and review this on your favorite podcast listening app? It really does help us in the rankings and also lets me know what you're interested in. All right. So that's it for this episode of the Test Guild Automation Podcast. I'm Joe, my mission is to help you succeed in creating end-to-end full stack automation awesomeness. As always, test everything and keep the good. Cheers.

[00:30:20] Hey, thank you for tuning in. It's incredible to connect with close to 400,000 followers across all our platforms and over 40,000 email subscribers who are at the forefront of automation, testing, and DevOps. If you haven't yet, join our vibrant community at TestGuild.com where you become part of our elite circle driving innovation, software testing, and automation. And if you're a tool provider or have a service looking to empower our guild with solutions that elevate skills and tackle real world challenges, we're excited to collaborate. Visit TestGuild.info to explore how we can create transformative experiences together. Let's push the boundaries of what we can achieve.

[00:31:04] Oh, the Test Guild Automation Testing podcast. With lutes and lyres, the bards began their song. A tune of knowledge, a melody of code. Through the air it spread, like wildfire through the land. Guiding testers, showing them the secrets to behold.