About This Episode:
Do you want to find your dream job and become a successful tester? In this episode, Raj Subrameyer, author of the new book Skyrocket Your Career shares his advice on career advancement for testers. Discover the skills you need to achieve your goals in the new year and set yourself miles apart from your competition.
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About Raj Subrameyer
Raj Subrameyer is an international keynote speaker, author, and tech career coach who helps people to land their dream job and become successful leaders. He has helped countless individuals discover their zone of genius and leverage it to live a life that they love. He is a sought-after speaker at various conferences and has been featured in numerous podcasts and publications, including Authority Magazine, Thrive Global, Addicted2Success, and The Good Men Project. He is also the author of the new book – Skyrocket Your Career. In his spare time, he loves traveling with his family and discovering new experiences which include craft beer. You can connect with him on Twitter @epsilon11, or his website www.rajsubra.com.
Connect with Raj Subrameyer
Full Transcript
Raj Subrameyer
Joe [00:01:35] Raj, welcome to the Guild!
Raj [00:01:39] Hey, Joe. Thanks for having me. Super exciting to be here.
Joe [00:01:42] Cool. I'm really excited to have you on the show. You know, when we first met you were working as an evangelist for a very popular AI-based company. You've actually presented in a lot of my online conferences. So really curious to know before we get into this, is there anything I missed in your bio? And then I want to learn a little bit more about where you are right now since the last time we spoke.
Raj [00:02:00] Yes. So, as you said, yeah, I was doing developer evangelism, which is a fancy word for a person who is doing R&D for a testing tool company and also speaking at conferences from a back leadership standpoint, right? So, yeah, I was doing that. But before that I was doing hardcore automation testing. So throughout my life, for the past 15 years, I've been writing code to build utilities to test better. That's who I am. And in the past 15 years, apart from doing hardcore testing alone, I was also interested in a lot of other activities, like writing where I share my touch through writing and publication. Then I loved that helping people in terms of personal development and advancing their careers. So I was a manager. I was the best lead. I've done performance reviews. I led a team of 450 people. And finally, I also had this itch to do something on my own because I knew that I had the potential to impact people from a personal and career standpoint. So, yeah in the past fifteen years, I've gone through various roles from tester, developer, back to testing to lead, to manager, developer evangelist, and now I'm doing tech career coaching where I'm helping people, specifically in the tech industry to find their dream job and become successful leaders. And apparently, I realized that I've been doing that for the past eight years. So I thought, you know what, I should do this full time. So that's why I switched from developer evangelism and right now, I'm doing tech career coaching.
Joe [00:03:41] I love that. You know, many, many years ago when I was struggling with my career, I want to be a musician. And I obviously failed at that. I looked at a book called “What Color is My Parachute?” I think it was called. And it had a section about transferable skills because I want to get into software and I'm like, well, I don't have nothing to do with software. I'm a musician. And so that really helped me realize I had life skills that actually were transferable to other positions and I shouldn't be afraid to try it. And it sounds like you had the same way. You were writing you were doing things within your current role as a tester, as a leader, and you were able to take that and actually transition those skills to a different area yet it was totally different. It's that like a cue that people maybe struggle with? They think they may not have the skills and not realize that actually, you have a course sort of transferable skills. You can use that to prepositions in different areas.
Raj [00:04:34] Yeah. I think just to take a step back and give some context here, I think till about 10 years ago the name of the game was to mastering something, to be the expert in something. He is the AI expert or he is the mainframe expert and now we don't have mainframe and then you are that cloud expert. So people were using this word “expert”. But then what happened was with advancements in technology, apparently, there are so many different things that you have to do as part of your work. It's not only coding, but you have to have people skills. You need to have good communication skills. You need to be good leaders. You have to have good leadership skills. And then you have to have good writing skills because you write emails and then you have to have good body language and tone of voice when you talk to developers and talk to other people and tell a compelling testing story. So now the name of the game is being Jack of all trades and master of none. Yeah, I know it sounds cheesy, but that is some truth of the matter because you need to know the basics and get your hands on all things technology because you never know how the trend is going to be in the next year. So you just have to be open to new opportunities and try so many different things. And that's why, like you mentioned, you were a musician and you're trying so many things and you were a hardcore tester as well. Now you do podcasting. And for me, apart from just hardcore testing, I was doing other things as well, because that's how you explore different opportunities. You explore your creativity, find your passion, and do something meaningful in life. So I think the name of the game has changed from being an expert to knowing a little bit of everything right now. And I think that's what defines success, especially in this day and age we live in currently.
Joe [00:06:31] So I think that's really true. So why do you think it's important that people not just poke some one thing? Is it because of the nature of disruption in our industry? In the tech industry things change so much, technology changes so much, but these other skills will always exist regardless of what the technology is.
Raj [00:06:48] Exactly. Yeah, I feel that it's a two-part thing, right? The first part is, no matter what the technology is and no matter how the world changes, there are certain basic skill sets which are going to live on forever. Starting with communication skills and soft skills. Research suggests that about 70 to 80 percent of the recruiting sessions actually are done based on how you communicate with them during interviews. How do you communicate to them via phone calls, right? So soft skills are so important. In fact, a study was conducted and found that about 80 to 90 percent of our daily life is mainly communication, apart from just being in silent environments and doing whatever you're asked to do, right? So basic skill sets like communication, soft skills, and then being a good listener and then empowering people. So those are basic things which you need to have no matter what technology or what era you are in. But now talking about the second part of it is, yes, you have to be curious to learn different things. So, for example, right now everyone talks about AI in testing. It's huge. In fact, I do keynote and consult with companies, AI-based companies as well. But while are we talking with AI, we are seeing different trends coming into the picture where we have online collaboration tools than we have cryptocurrency, we have blockchain. We have so many new technologies which are developing as well, which people are not talking about yet. And for example, right now, you can hold me to this, you're talking about AI in testing and then there's going to be other tools for blockchain testing. So that's how the trend evolves. But as in men the trend evolves, we immediately have to shift our mindset and adapt to the new trend by at least knowing some basics so that at least you can hold a conversation and contribute. You don't have to have a masters in everything. But when you…once you know the basics and say you're given an opportunity to work on something, you can learn things on the fly. Because of Google, anyone can be anything right now.
Joe [00:09:00] Now, that's a great point. So I guess, you know, we talked a little bit about like trends moving out of one position to a completely different area. But how about for folks that are testers and they just want to advance in their career, are there any core competencies you've seen being a tech coach that you think folks should focus on that would help them get promotions within their career that they love and they just want to grow in it?
Raj [00:09:24] Yeah, that's a great point. So let's just set some context here. So currently, especially, you know with Covid, people feel anxious about their job security. They feel stuck in their career and they've already been millions of jobs have been lost and people have been on the receiving end of it. And finally, there are some people who want to advance in their career, but they feel scared to make the change because of the fear of the unknown, right? And I was in the exact same situation. Like in 2008, I came to the U.S. in the midst of a recession and I had to apply for 1 293 jobs. And out of that, guess how many jobs I converted?
Joe [00:10:11] One.
Raj [00:10:14] Yeah, it was one, because you know my story. But the point is that…so when I started that whole experience taught me about what people want, what companies want from you. How do you want to approach people? Why are there different skill sets they're looking for? And over the past 15 years, I've learned even more strategies attending interviews and interviewing hundreds of people. So based on that context, there are certain skill sets you always want to have if you want to grow in your career, right? So just to name a few, the first thing is you have to have continuous learning. You have to invest in yourself. That is so important. And be kind of pass up on it a bit. But just to reiterate, you have to be ready to invest in yourself. So what does that mean? Take online courses, have mentors, hire coaches, and you have to continuously try to grow because this is a thing you don't have to reinvent the wheel. If you don't know programming, you don't have to start right from the beginning. There are really great programmers out there. Reach out to them and they'll literally give you the golden nuggets for you to fast track your growth, right? And taking a lot of courses also is going to open up so many different opportunities for you in terms of what you can do and you cannot do. For example, you would be thinking, you know what, I want to be a test manager for four years and then once you take these courses you would think, huh, maybe being a technical architect is something which I need to focus on right now because I like creativity. I like technology. And I want to be hands down in testing and architecture, right? So based on my experience, I think continuous learning is the first number one thing you need to do. You have to invest in yourself and don't be afraid to do so because there are thousands of people applying for the same job. There are thousands of people trying to advance to the same position that you are in right now. What makes you better than the other person? That's the differentiation factor. And investing in yourself is going to be really helpful. The second thing you want to do is make your results really visible if you want to grow in your career. So what do I mean by that? The problem with most of the people I see is they do a lot of great stuff, but they don't let people know what they're doing. The results are not visible. It's just like automation. We know automation has value. But the problem is people do not speak automation. If you want to make people take automation seriously, you have to continuously talk about it during daily stand-ups, retrospective meetings, team meetings, one on ones, and then you plan to see that, oh, okay automation is really important. Similarly, if you're doing some great things in your team, like, say, you solved a really complex problem, or you built a utility which is saving the company millions of dollars, you need to echo that to your team during daily stand up meetings, retrospective meetings, one on ones to talk about that like how we brag value. And when people constantly hear how you're bringing value, then during your performance appraisals and promotion time, it's not going to be a surprise that they have to give you a promotion because they already know what you bring to the table. What I used to do is I used to keep a notepad, a notepad or a text editor. I used to keep writing down all my accomplishments. And during my one on one, I used to talk about that with my boss. And during my annual review season, I literally used to take all these points and put them to annual review, right? Because nothing should be a mystery. People need to know what you're doing. So when you do that, you don't have to try to fight for your promotion. You don't have to try to fight for your performance appraisal because everything is there in black and white. So investing in yourself, making your results visible, and maybe I could just share one more strategy because there's a lot of strategies you can follow. But these are kind of the top-heavy hitters which I think. One more thing, which I could say is try to do things which no one else wants to do. So what do I mean by that again? Quite often when you work in a company, there are always these things which people do not want to do because it consumes more time or people think it's a menial task or people think it's a really complex task. Whatever be the case, that is your opportunity to shine. Because when people give up on things and you take that and solve it, then that is going to show value. That's where people are going to remember. So, for example, I was working for this huge insurance company in Cleveland and throughout my four years, people are complaining about an Excel sheet template the standard company had to follow. We were doing risk-based testing and there are so many columns, so many data there, and people are manually doing things, and basing a lot of things. So just updating that every week used to consume like two hours. Then after four years of looking at this, I said, you know what? What if we do something to save time for people, for the entire company? Because every person has to update this Excel sheet. Then people said it was time-consuming. People said you know what? This is not a priority. But then what I did was I asked my boss whether I could take up the task to automate that process, right? So every day I spent about half an hour, one hour and for a month I did that and automated it. And this was 10 years ago. And literally even today, my friends who were there talk to me and say, “Dude, they're still using your macro, you created for the risk-based testing sheet, right? People remember me. So that's what I mean by trying to pick up things which no one else wants to do. And one more thing I'm going to mention before we move on because I think that's important is…there's this important concept called undersell over-perform. So the problem in most of the people, including me, till about seven, eight years ago is when we were given a task, we will immediately say, “Wow! Yes, I can finish it. I'm going to finish on this date. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do that”. We get excited. But then when the deadline comes into the picture, you feel that you're rushed and you have to do something just to make sure you meet the deadlines. And then your work is not perfect. I don't like the word perfect because there's never…you can never reach perfection, but your work is not up to what, up to your potential, right? So what I usually do is whenever I accept a deadline, I set two or three days back where…or based on the task you can add some buffer time. So I used to finish the task beforehand. And then for the rest of the time, I use this…think about something creative to give the Raj stamp on the task. So many people have some deliverables from me, they know that it's going to be special, right? So that's why don't overcommit to things but deliver more commit less and underselling over performing. So those are kind of the four strategies right now you can follow to advance in your career. And of course, I go into more detail about this in my book as well. But just to start off, these things are going to be really helpful.
Joe [00:17:51] No, it's a great point. I know these points are true because I probably have done each one of them unknown to me. And so until you just name them. For example, I have a blog and this actually helped about being visible because when I applied for a job I looked at the description, what they were looking for. So before the interview, I created a blog post around the exact topics they were interviewing for. And guess what they asked during the interview. They said, oh, we looked at your blog and we noticed you actually wrote about this. This is exactly what we want. And I think that was one of the main reasons why I got the job. So it's not bragging. It's like just making sure that you're available. You're putting yourself out there, just showing what you've produced because people are going to look for you, especially in this day and age. They're going to look you up on the Internet. If you have nothing there and you say you're a web designer and you have no portfolio, no websites, then how are they going to know? You know, you're not going to go to the top of the queue, especially nowadays with all the things. So is that one reason also why it's critical to be visible? Because people can just Google your name now and if nothing comes up then like you do nothing to stand out in the crowd.
Raj [00:18:56] Exactly, yeah. That is one reason. And you also bring up our important point of how to set yourself minds apart from your competition, right? Because we were just talking about, say, a thousand people are applying for the same job. Why are they going to pick you compare to other people? Let's take your example. Say you're applying for a job. And then literally based on the job description, you wrote a blog post. And then during the interview, they literally talk about your blog post. And that was one of the key factors which got you the job, right? That is a perfect example of what you need to do right now. How to set yourself miles apart from your competition, right? You have to think about different things you could do to stand out from the crowd. What can you do to prove that you're different from other people? What can you do to prove that you're worthy of the job? So that is what we have to think about, especially during these times, right? So that's why whoever I talk to, I tell them that. Start with the basics. The basic thing is you need to have an updated LinkedIn profile because every keyword you use on LinkedIn profile is index, is SEO. And not a lot of people know that. So when companies use recruiting software or AI bots to screen through the LinkedIn profiles, they literally keep using like look for those words like Agile, Scrum, Python programmer. Or leader or collaborator or team player. They keep searching for words like this. And immediately, if you have those words on your LinkedIn profile, you show up compared to other people. So you have to first start with the basics, which is your LinkedIn profile. That's why when I talk to people and help people, I do what is called a profile analysis. First, we have to figure out what state you are in right now, because some people would say, I'm not getting a job. I'm not getting a job. And they don't even have a LinkedIn profile, right? So you have to start with the basics. I do LinkedIn profile. Another access place you have to start doing before you go on and do what Joe is saying, like think outside the box is you have to do what is called a mind dump exercise, which is super powerful and has helped me grow quite a bit and also other people have implemented. So this a really simple exercise and this what you do. You literally take a paper and pen and then through the middle of the paper you put a line. And then on the left column, write down things you love to do. And on the right column, write down things you hate to do. Just doing that exercise and make sure you're uninterrupted. And you know what disturbs you when you're doing this exercise. Take about 30 minutes to an hour. And just by doing this, you're going to unravel so many different things that are just locked in your mind. Literally, your mind is telling you different interest areas, but you're just so lost in your thoughts and it's not visible. So you don't know how to focus. So just by doing this exercise, what you can find out is say, for example, in terms of things you love to do. Say you write that you like to be creative. You don't like managing. You like R&D. You like technology. And then you like to be…you like to work on the latest trends in technology or something like that. I'm just randomly spitting out some facts here. Then maybe being a developer at a startup company is something. It could be a good job for you, right? So based on the things you love to do, you can find out different career options, different strengths for you. And then you can start climbing your career based on your strengths. I know people would say focus on your weakness. And that's the number one mistake managers do and everyone does because everyone has a weakness. Why do you want to spend one year concentrating on the weakness when you have so many strengths that you can focus on? There is a great book called, “First, Break All the Rules”. It's a great book. I highly recommend it. They talk about this exact same concept where the current state of even managers, their super old school right now. They have to get on to the latest trend where you focus on the strengths because one person's weakness is another person's strengths. But coming back to what I was saying, so LinkedIn profile, which is everything there's SEO and then mind dump exercise and based on that you know what careers you want to focus on. And then you strategically focus on the top three things that you have identified. It could be test manager. It could be product manager. It could be technical architect. And then write down things you have to do in each career, which you have that conversion the next three months. It could be courses. It could be meeting people. It could be asking a boss to shadow someone in that position. Whatever that may be. So LinkedIn, mind dump…first thing you have to start. And then, Joe, like you said, if you're applying for jobs or if you're looking for career advancement, then you have to start thinking out of the box. And we already talked about some of the strategies that you could follow to help you do that as well.
Joe [00:24:14] So I love that exercise of a brain dump, but I think a lot of people for some reason don't know themselves. That's an old philosophy thing. Know thyself. And what they're aiming for, if they don't do that brain dump, may not align with what they really want. No, I would hate…You know, a lot of times, people do think they think that's the right thing to do. I want to work for Google. I want to work for Apple. Well, you know, do you really want to? Maybe you do. But I would hate to have to move to San Francisco. I would hate to have to be locked into an office all the time. Now with Apple, you cannot do your own thing or even mentioned you work for Apple so they're very restrictive. It doesn't really line up with my principles. I'm like, no way. I'm going to work for Joe. That's my thing. And maybe you're you know, if you did a mind dump, you may realize maybe you're the same way and what you thought you want really is not what you want. And it's going to save you a lot of time. You could find really what you were meant for. I don't know. Have you seen that when you were coaching folks? Maybe they thought they wanted something and after doing a brain dump they realize, wait a minute, I guess I don't want that. I want this other thing.
Raj [00:25:11] Oh, my God. I've seen that so many times where people think they have to focus on one thing just because someone said so or just because someone else is in that position, but they don't pay attention to what their heart is telling them, what their mind is telling them. And once we unravel all these things from your mind, using the mind dump exercise, then you can focus on your strengths, and based on what things you have to focus on, you can come up with different tasks to get into that career and then take those tasks and start putting it on your Google calendar on a weekly basis. Okay, this week for two hours, I'm going to search for leadership courses, for example. Then second week, I'm going to choose the leadership course. I'm going to take the course. Third week, I'm going to start to talk to my boss about shadowing another leader, right? And then in three months, when you strategically plan out this whole thing, you would be in a better state to get into a QA manager position, for example, or at least be in consideration for the role because you've shown proactiveness to reach to that destination. And this is what I tell people. It's a really simple example but just hits the point straight away. You can not use Google Maps and not put a destination address and just complain that Google Maps is not working properly. And that's exactly a career. You cannot keep doing random things that are not focused on your strengths and then complain that you know what, the world is against me or things are not working out for me because you yourself do not know what destination you have to go to. You yourself do not know what your career is. You already lost, right? Like Helen Keller once said, the only thing worse than being blind is having sight, but no vision. Oh my God. Just by saying that I'm getting goosebumps. That is so true. So you need to know where you're heading. I know people talk about five, ten, fifteen-year plan. I think that's bullshit because it's really hard to judge what are you going to do in the next five years. Joe, you can relate to this because me and you are doing something, some other thing three years ago and now we are totally different.
Joe [00:27:31] Yup.
Raj [00:27:31] Right? So don't have a five, 10, 15-year plan. Yes. I'm going against all the big people who have said have this five, 10 year, 15-year plan. That's not…that does not work. Trust me on this. You need to have a three to six months plan. And then based on the three to six months plan, see what work. And then come up with the next six months plan. It's okay to think about where you want to be. That is totally fine. But your actions should reflect the short term goals because that's what is going to give you ideas on where you want to go in the next couple of years. So think small, get more focus, and then you strategically start looking at what career options and try to grow in them. That would be my biggest advice based on my experience,.
Joe [00:28:21] Great advice. What are your thoughts on side hustles? A lot of times people think, oh I need to leave my job because it's not my passion. And then they're like, alright now what? If you work on a side hustle like…once again, I keep going back to myself. But I was doing the side thing. I was doing a podcast, online events, and I loved my job. I don't think I'd ever get laid off. And then guess what? I was laid off. But luckily you find out how lucky you get when you work on a side hustle for 10 years. Because after I was laid off, because I've done that for 10 years in the background, I just transition to I'm going to do my side also now full time. Is that something you think people may be overlooked? Maybe they should maybe experiment a little in their spare time on what they think they want to do and see how that goes. And then could just that could explode them at some point if it really matches what they can do in the future.
Raj [00:29:12] Hundred percent. I think part of being human is being creative and having different ideas. But the problem is how do you focus on which idea to implement? That's the question everyone asks ourselves, right? I believe yes you could have a full-time job. And on the side, experiment with things. Because experimentation, I believe, is the key to success. Take me as an example. So I started my company in 2017, mid-2017, and now it's 2020, right? And I was doing this as a side hustle. I was coaching people already. I was training people, giving workshops not only in the US but even internationally as well for companies while holding a full-time job. Now, why did I do that? So first thing is, I'm human. I have different interests. And you get only one life. You want to see what your potential is and try to explore your passions. The second thing is you can always have the cushion or the buffer of your full-time job to get in some money and then take some portion of that money and then put that in your side hustle. That's what I did in mid-2017, and looks like that, like you've been doing all along as well. So when life changes, like what happened to you. And for me, I decided to go do this full time. And then for a lot of people listening right now with Covid, their life changed. Maybe they got laid off, maybe they got furloughed, maybe they got demoted. Whatever the case may be. Remember, in life, there's no security, there are only opportunities. So when people say you're running your own business, it's so risky. Now, people know that even if you have a full-time job, he could still be at risk, right? So that is the truth because life is a bitch and you'll never know when it's going to hit you. That's why side hustles are really important. Start a hybrid approach if you're not sure what you want to do which is holding a full-time job and then concentrating on two or three things that you like. And over a period of time, you've got to start narrowing down the focus on what gives you more joy, what gives you more impact, what you're passionate about. Then you could probably leave a full-time job and then start your side…make your side hustle your full-time job. Like what you did Joe and what pretty much I did. Exploring different avenues, I even ventured into the top online slots sites for real money as part of my side hustle, testing and reviewing them to see if they could offer additional income streams. So to answer your question. Yes. 100 percent. I think having a side hustle or hobbies or other interests apart from just your full-time job is really important for personal growth. Exploring your creativity and finding your passion.
Joe [00:31:53] Yeah. I think one thing that stops them from doing a side hustle is they think they're stealing time from their employer, where you're actually enhancing your employer because anything you're working on yourself is only going to help your current employer. So it's not like you're ignoring what you're being paid to do. Everything I was doing on the side actually enhanced what I was doing in my full-time job. And I think they can complement each other as well. It's not. No, try to deceive one or do less and want to do more of the other. That's been my experience as well.
Raj [00:32:20] Exactly. Because the company gets recognition when you get published in a magazine. Because this is what happens. You write a great article and it's water as one of the top articles of the year. Then they see a name. Under the name, you have a bio and your job description. And then you would say, I'm a developer evangelist at this company and the company gets recognition. People click on the company, start researching the company. Then the company gets leads. The company gets customers. The company gets reputation. That's why people speak at conferences, especially from companies. Of course, from a top leadership standpoint, they want to make an impact. But another part of it is they want the company to get recognition. They want people to buy their products as well, right? It's the exact same thing like Joe what you said, which is you can be open about what you're doing because a company is going to benefit from it as well. And when I was doing my side hustles during the job interview process, I clearly mentioned to them what I do as part of my side hustle. And if they were not cool with it, then it's not the company I want to work for. I want to work for companies that give time, takes for your creativity and passion. Of course, there are constraints where you can do the exact same job as your company is doing. You can compete with your current job because of course that doesn't make sense. But if there's something which really makes you tick, makes you love your life and makes you love your work and makes you get new ideas. Then just go with it and try out what works and be open to it. Be a boss in your company. And I'm pretty sure in this day and age they are going to support you in what you want to do.
Joe [00:34:01] Okay Raj before we go, is there one piece of actionable advice you can give to someone to help them with the testing career efforts, and what's the best way to find and contact you or learn more about your coaching. Your new book is about to come up.
Raj [00:34:13] So if there's one piece of advice that I can give testers right now, I would say that you need to shift your mindset and belief system. So if you think, for example, if you think you're worth only fifty thousand dollars, then the way you act, the way you feel, the way you show up is going to reflect a person who's earning fifty thousand dollars. But if you feel you're worth two hundred thousand dollars, then the way you show up, the way you react, the way you do things is going to reflect a person who's earning two hundred thousand dollars, right? So it's all about your mindset and belief system. I know a lot of people are scared right now because of Covid but the fact of the matter is now we have Covid before we had the 2008 recession, then we had the Anthrax scare, then we had 9/11. That's because things are always going to happen around you. You cannot control the circumstances. But remember, you can control your actions under any circumstance. And so have a positive mindset, reframe your belief system, and try to do things strategically and you can reach your goals and dreams. And if you want to reach out to me, hit me on my website, which is rajsubra.com, which is R-A-J-S-U-B-R-A dot com. And you can hit me on LinkedIn as well because I'm super active on LinkedIn. So follow me and connect with me there because I share a lot of videos on career advancement that are going to be helpful for people. And finally, my book is available on Amazon. It's called Sky Rocket Your Career. There's no bullshit approach to find your dream job, to be successful in that, and transform into a rock star. So if you want to check out more details about it and if you want to learn more strategy than what we discussed in this podcast go to skyrocketyourcareerbook.com. That's my book website. And you'll find all the details. So that's where you can find me and connect with me.
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