Building a Career in QA with Judy Mosley

[00:00:34] Hey, today we're talking with Judy Mosley all about your journey or her journey to software testing. Really excited about this topic. If you don't know, Judy is a QA engineer at TextUs. As a QA in the tech industry of over 9 years, she puts herself in a position of learning and growth, as you could tell. She has a lot of blogging. She's always in all the different communities doing all the things. She's also a writer for failure is feedback which I'll have a link for down below. It's a weekly newsletter dedicated to testing and living from a quality perspective. You definitely should check out. Like once again, like I said, you can definitely register for it down below. She's also an active member of the TestGuild community. I've been trying to go around the show. I'm so glad she decided to join us. You don't want this episode, check it out.

[00:01:17] Joe Colantonio Hey Judy, welcome to The Guild!

[00:01:23] Judy Mosley Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited.

[00:01:26] Joe Colantonio Me too. So like I said, you've been an active member of The Guild. I'm always excited to see a new post and what you've working on. I guess the first thing is maybe, take us back. How did you get into testing? A lot of people, especially me, fall into testing at random reasons. Just curious to know what your journey was.

[00:01:43] Judy Mosley Yeah, so for me personally, I was a stay-at-home mom for 10 years. And I joined the development bootcamp here in Louisville. And I took two, I took front end web development and then PHP. And my first job was as a QA. And it was kind of painted to me as QA is not the career that you want to stay in. It's a stepping stone. But it's definitely not the glamorous life of a developer that everyone surely wants to enter into. But as I stepped into the career, I found out that I was really good at breaking things. And also frustrating developers, so one thing that I also focus a lot on is communication. And because as a QA, when you're constantly pointing things out to people that they may not be excited to find. It can be a very tricky balance to do that well. That's a lot of I love breaking things, but I also want to keep friends in the business. So balancing the two is important to me.

[00:02:52] Joe Colantonio 100%. A lot of people ask me about boot camps. Was it worth it? Should they do it? What do your real experience do you think people should join a boot camp or what were your experience with this particular boot camp?

[00:03:04] Judy Mosley My experience was so helpful. It was the first time in my life that I experienced real mentorship. Entering into the boot camp, we came up with the idea for a project. And At the end, we had a portfolio. They taught us how to interview. They taught a how to write a resume. And so there was a lot of, we were also forced to network, which as an introvert like myself was an absolute nightmare, but I learned so much and I would recommend a bootcamp just for the fact of like seeing if it's for you because a lot of times, especially someone like my background who didn't have any formal training. You just don't know if it's gonna be the right fit for you. And so even just taking a dive into it, spending a few weeks. Learning if the frustration is worth it because the frustration is definitely a part of it but the real gains for me personally were completely worthwhile.

[00:04:06] Joe Colantonio Nice, you mentioned they did say maybe QA may be more of a stepping stone. How much of QA did they teach you or testing? Was it just like like a small part of it? And then you're like, oh, no, I got the job. Now what?

[00:04:18] Judy Mosley Okay, so I'm not sure I've told anyone this, but I think our total QA training in the boot camps was I remember one person saying, try to break what you've built. And I thought, that's terrible. Like, why would I want to do that? So that was the only instruction that I got within the boot camp itself but as a career, thankfully my first job, it was very manual focus. There was only one automated test engineer. Where it was. And we all just kind of looked at this person in awe. But because the position was so manually driven? I learned how to break things in a lot of different ways and in that open space, it was actually very instructional for me.

[00:05:07] Joe Colantonio Love it. As I mentioned, I watched different people in the community and what they do and I'm not a stalker or anything, but it seems to get very active, you're always learning. How do you put yourself maybe into a position of growth. When you mention you're an introvert, I'm a very much an introvert, even people don't believe it, but I am. How do you put that aside and then still continue to grow up yourself out there?

[00:05:26] Judy Mosley The biggest reason that I started to write and to connect with the community is because as I was changing jobs within QA, when you're in one role for a specific amount of time, you learn the roles but you don't expand. Typically, when you take another role, ask for different career requirements. Then you realize, oh, I need to learn this thing. I have made quite a few job changes in my life for various reasons. And because of that, it's put me in this place where I would need to learn a new skill or just like Cypress is a great example. A lot of the documentation is out there, the community is out there, but then there are specific problems that I would run into the internet. And so when I started to write, it was basically for myself. Like I am going to run into this problem again. And I don't want to forget it if I ever leave this job. A lot of the reason for me to write and to connect with the people that I do is because the resources. And frankly, the friendships are becoming so valuable. And I can't grow without those pieces.

[00:06:46] Joe Colantonio Absolutely And I'm just curious to know since you've been writing, do you find yourself getting more opportunities that you wouldn't have had if you weren't writing or writing these blog posts and interacting with the community?

[00:06:57] Judy Mosley Yes. I have been a writer for as long as I can remember, I have my journal from when I was 11 years old.

[00:07:05] Joe Colantonio Wow, very cool.

[00:07:07] Judy Mosley It's not interesting. Writing itself was it's just been a part of me, but I think the first thing that I had to get over was the crickets, because when you first start writing-writing for an audience does not work for me. My audience is myself. And my audience may be the one other person that runs into this weird issue that I find. So, as I've written, I have been really amazed by the ways that my writing has been picked up by the Ministry of Testing. By you, Cypress recently included it in one of their newsletters and there is a part of me that's like you know that I don't know what I'm doing. Just that feeling of I'm so grateful. And I'm still thankful, but it's still, yeah, it does blow my mind a lot.

[00:08:03] Joe Colantonio How do you fight through that imposter syndrome? And once again, I think a lot of us, like myself as an introvert, I also have imposter syndrome. How do you fight through it, though? Like, oh, I shouldn't release this. Maybe I shouldn't publish this. Do you ever get any? Hasn't it seemed like I don't know enough about this tool or this code to do this.

[00:08:20] Judy Mosley One of my biggest fears is that someone will read what I write be like, no. But like, that's the thing is I'm still waiting for it.

[00:08:28] Joe Colantonio Right, yep.

[00:08:29] Judy Mosley And that's the biggest thing for me is being willing to say. Okay, yeah, I'm writing and I'm not sure how this is going to be received. But the only way to know is to do it. I personally do not fight against imposter syndrome. I like what Elizabeth Gilbert said in Big Magic. Where she's basically. She said that fear is always with her. Like it never goes away. And so. She basically tells her fear. Okay, you can stick around. You can hang with me. Here's some snacks. Here's a blanket, whatever you need. But I'm going to drive. And I think that idea has been the most helpful for me where it's like if I let fear drive, I'm not going to get anywhere but if there's something that I at least want to experiment with I will regret not experimenting with it and I'd rather do the thing and be proven stupid than not do the thing and not know it all.

[00:09:32] Joe Colantonio Love it. I guess I see this a lot as well as people are waiting for training rather than taking the initiative to try something because maybe they're scared. Do you see like if someone's on the job and they have a tool like, oh, the developers are using Cypress. I'm not a developer. I'm not going to try it, but knowing that, maybe you're not an expert, maybe you don't know anything about it, but what's the harm in you trying it and trying to get up to speed? Check them out for yourself.

[00:09:54] Judy Mosley Yeah. I think the biggest, well. Like you mentioned, the idea that like you have to be a specific type of person to even try. And maybe let's just remove that label off. You're a person and you're curious. Let's go with that. That's enough of a qualifier. I think the other thing for me was I remember I went to a local meetup in town. And it was on automation and so many people attended. I was there. And this guy talked about how he built this automation framework but he didn't give a lot of beginner tips. And I asked, like, where do you start? Like, how do you? And he said, oh, well, you just play with it. And I'm like. That is not helpful.

[00:10:40] Joe Colantonio That's right.

[00:10:41] Judy Mosley Cause it's just like those I think when you're a beginner, you need those tiny, tiny steps where it's just like, Okay, let's just make a GitHub like that was my article this week. Make a GitHub repository. And that's it. That's gonna be the big win for the week. And then, I think the other thing is like. I was thinking about this specifically and I think what made the difference for me was when I got hired on I was, this was for another position. I was bound and determined to learn automation and I basically told the people interviewing me that I was going to learn automation and they can either have me on the team or I would learn it without them. And so what they did was, when I got hired on, they gave me a project. They said, pick a framework, explain it to us why you picked this framework, why you think it would be best for our organization. And I think something like that, like if you're a beginner. There are so many testing sites out there that you could just pick a testing site. Look at it, observe it, kind of poke around with it and think, okay, what testing framework do I want to try to play with? Is it Playwright? Is it Cypress? Am I interested in Selenium? And I think if you kind of start thinking as a person who wants to build a project, that may be more helpful than Oh, we'll just play with it.

[00:12:10] Joe Colantonio Love it, love it. How do you know the what to do though? Like if someone says to play with, like, do you have like a framework to use? Like, okay, here are the steps I use to learn something or I found helpful to kind of guide people along the way?

[00:12:24] Judy Mosley I think another thing that's helpful is thinking like a user. I'm seeing a lot of post about is test case management dead. I love test case management. And for anyone that's curious, if you just want to build test cases because that's a lot of times where we start, like that's our frame of reference. Looking at a functionality, what does it need to do? I need to click the button. Should the button change color? There's like so many aspects about specific functionality that we can think about if we focus on it. If we use test cases to break those down, me personally, it helps kind of. It helps put together my thoughts on how I'm going to test it and even how to automate it. I know that with case, well, one, test case management typically is expensive. Case, you can make project for free. Like you can create an account. If you want to start building out the idea of learning how to automate, write some test cases in a real test case management system. And then play with that. If the test case is. Log in. Start with Cypress. You need to fill out the forms. You need click the button. The result should be a specific kind of thing. Manual testing, in my opinion, is so valuable when it comes to automation, because the two are very linked in my mind.

[00:13:54] Joe Colantonio When do you get the time to do all this? Obviously you're a mother, I assume like people like she's probably single, she doesn't have any kids, but you're a mother. You have kids. Like how does this work? When do you get time to even do this?

[00:14:06] Judy Mosley Yeah Well, I will say I am very privilege in that my kids are teenagers, so they don't need me 24/7. Listen, we all have different seasons in our life. And if you need to take an hour on a Saturday. Or whatever it is that fits your life. I don't want people to come away thinking that they have to do all this in order to be successful. The season that you're in is gonna define what you do. For me personally, I have teenagers, both of them are working now. I have a specific night of the week that I write and it's on the calendar that the entire family can see it. And they know, like, okay, it's Tuesday night, mom's writing, like we can't bother. There is an aspect of kind of being very clear about what you wanna do and how you're gonna do it. And even setting a calendar event for yourself that if one of my friends are like. Hey, do you want to get together on Tuesday? Nope, unfortunately, I can't. What's a better night? So taking yourself and your opportunities as seriously as the rest of life.

[00:15:22] Joe Colantonio Love it. Do you also find it as a good hack that when you're on the job, say, you need to automate something using a tool. Couldn't you learn it on the job because you're applying it to your job? I'm not saying you're using the time to the company's time to do something you're not supposed to be doing, but you're incorporating your learning with the things you're supposed to be doing. Like maybe they said, you're going to manually test this like. Okay, I can, but I can also automate it. Why don't I try to automate it? Well, the company tell me I don't know if that makes sense, but is that kind of a career hack that might be able to help someone?

[00:15:51] Judy Mosley Absolutely. I will say in the company that I work at now, they encourage learning. I can take an hour once a week. And just if there's anything that I'm interested in, in regards to technology, I can check it out. Like it doesn't have to be project focused. I will say that a lot of the ideas for my articles that I write, I get from my job because I'm working on a specific automation problem and I'm not finding what I need. And I just write myself a post it and I'm like, okay, I'm gonna blog about this after work because it's killing me.

[00:16:29] Joe Colantonio Yeah, I saw my podcast when I was working full time as an automation engineer. Things I was struggling with, I'd get a guest to talk about on my podcast and was like free consulting. So the company I was like It may look like I'm not doing my job, but actually talking to this person actually helped me solve this problem. That we have with all you're paying a dime. I guess it's the way you phrase it, right, or the way you pitch it to your company. Helps as well. Exactly. You've had a lot of jobs over your years, like, what's the secret to getting a new gig or not being like myself, when I get a job, I try to hunker down and not have to look again, but how do you get the courage to then say? Alright, maybe I'm not growing the way I want to grow. I want to learn this other thing. How do you do that?

[00:17:13] Judy Mosley For me personally, and I am afraid this is gonna sound a little woo-woo, but I'm gonna go for it. I trust my gut a lot. I am huge on culture. I need to be able to speak up if there's an issue. If the culture starts tanking in any way, I will voice that to my superiors. I have no problem with identifying when things aren't going well in a company. But once I start feeling like it's time to leave. I hate it. Like duh, like job searching is the worst. But I do know that with every move I've made, I have only benefited. And I very much pay attention to the culture around me. Can I be myself? Can I speak up about the issues that I'm seeing, be it within the culture or if just I don't know if just if something is not going well. And if I see the culture start to shift, I do communicate that, not just gonna bolt immediately, but if I should see that change is impossible. My growth and my health frankly, is more important than any job I have. So I would rather risk it with someone else than stay in a place where I know I'm not gonna thrive.

[00:18:32] Joe Colantonio I don't know. Any time I have a job, I'm always afraid I'm going to get laid off. Do you find because you're putting yourself out there that maybe that fear doesn't go away, but maybe it minimizes it, because I was like at least, because I'm putting myself out there if I did get laid off. I guess I almost create some good will or the little breadcrumbs that can lead people back to me for opportunities.

[00:18:52] Judy Mosley That is to be seen. I do consider my writing kind of like a living resume. Again, like. I write to express who I am. I don't have any specific goals that I'm after, other than to make the path a little more clear for someone else that's following me. If someone is reading whatever I'm writing and they resonate with that. And it does lead to an opportunity that would be amazing. I think there is a moment where for me personally, I have seen a lot of amazing people and QA get laid off. I mean, people that I would consider superstars. I do want to keep a touch of humility I guess that like just because I'm putting out myself out there and writing and offering what I can. It doesn't mean that I won't get laid off for whatever reason. But that also doesn't mean that I'm doing a terrible job either because of these people that I admire are struggling too, then it speaks more of the place that we're in than who we are as people.

[00:20:01] Joe Colantonio 100% I actually was laid off 6 years ago and I haven't got a job since this is myself I agree with you there, 100%. I'm curious to know, layoffs, I think Microsoft just did a huge layoff. And as you know, A.I. Is everywhere and I think A. I. they're going AI first or something. What you got telling you about AI? Should testers be worried? Is this just something else that's part of the being part of the tech industry?

[00:20:26] Judy Mosley I have so many mixed feelings about AI. I was reading an article this morning about how AI is ChatGPT and other chat bots. They basically make what sounds good enough. I think it goes back to finding those organizations that share the same values that you do. Like I think about where I work now and I don't think they would just hopefully they wouldn't ditch me for some AI testing. But they are very thoughtful and they want good quality software. And so I think it very much depends on what the company itself believes about AI. And I think just speaking up and having those conversations and what defines value? Like what, as a person am I creating? Is it valuable and what does it mean to the company at large? And I mean, like, if you want to start a career as a gardener or a farmer, and that's what your gut is telling you, go for it. I don't think you'll miss much, but definitely be aware of the videos that you see on social media because they're probably touched up these days.

[00:21:42] Joe Colantonio For sure. I like what you said about value, though. Do you think it's a tester's responsibility to not just say AI, but maybe inform themselves what I can and can't do, and then maybe tell your management, hey, to show them, hey you are taking initiative. You are trying to help, you are trying to cooperate AI, but you're doing it in a way that like, hey this works and this doesn't. And so they see you even more maybe as an A.I. testing leader now. Maybe you can help your other teams with it. I don't know, just thinking out loud here.

[00:22:11] Judy Mosley Yeah, I think, I'll just use an example. I like to write. I never use writing prompts from ChatGPT. I just, I love writing and I love that process of getting started even when I have no idea what to say. But in contrast, I sell some items online just for fun. And they have included AI in the fact that it will analyze whatever you're selling and then come up with a title and description. I love that because I don't care. I mean, I want to be able to sell what I'm selling online, but at the same time, I don't want to think about it that hard. And so it's like going back to the points of value where it's like. Okay, how can we use AI to make our customers more at ease with our product because there's probably things that they don't want to think about either. And I think if we could guide AI to do those things that just make you go, ugh. I think that's more helpful.

[00:23:15] Joe Colantonio I'm actually a terrible writer, I can write but like I have to give it to my wife to edit it and she'd give me a side eye like, why did I marry this idiot? I've been using ChatGPT just to say, before I give this to my wife. Don't change any of the content, just check the grammar, the spelling. Anything like that. And then it does it. And then I give it to her and I get a little more. A little more love that way. I guess use it for the right reason not to do everything for you, but just maybe to assist you, maybe, I guess is what I'm getting at.

[00:23:43] Judy Mosley Exactly. I know recently one of the developers was writing a Cypress test, and they just use AI to start off with it. I think A lot of times, maybe that's where you need you just, you're too afraid to start yourself. I know with automation, it can be so even just starting just feels so hard, but it's like, okay. Yeah, I don't think there's anything wrong with like seeing how someone else does it. Whether it's a person or ChatGPT, but then like don't accept it. I think that's the thing where it's like. I don't know, I like learning tangibly. And so if I can do it first. That's how I understand it. But if I just give it away, or if I just watch someone do it? I feel like I don't really take it in. And I can't replicate it. And I think understanding I could create automated tests with AI. But do I actually know what it's doing and why it's doing and is there a better way? Like, can I identify a better way to automate a test even if whatever response I've been given.

[00:24:51] Joe Colantonio Absolutely. Yeah, it can give you false confidence, like this is the right way, but you with knowledge can look at it and go, I don't think so with this one. You may have been right with the second one, but the first one, let's get rid of it and modify it. So like you said, don't take it at face value. I think it's good advice for sure. Okay Judy, before we go, is there one piece of actionable advice you can give to someone to help them with their automation testing or testing efforts in general. And what's the best way to find or contact you?

[00:25:17] Judy Mosley Yes. So if I was to give advice, take yourself seriously, but not so seriously. This is just a skill. Like anything else. Read the documentation, well, whatever framework you choose, read the documentation. Join whatever community you can. I know both with Cypress and Playwright, they have Discord communities. Even though I don't use Playwright at this moment. I am a part of the community because I do understand that at some point I may need to pick it up and I want to have those connections in place. Just take it one step at a time. Try to find the people that are doing what you want to do because as you watch them, you'll learn as well. To find me, I am on LinkedIn. I think it's just /JudyMosley. I haven't looked at it in a while, but probably the best place to find me is LinkedIn. And then if I have other links, I can add them there.

[00:26:17] Absolutely. And once again, we'll have all the links to follow Judy down below.

[00:26:21] Thanks again for your automation awesomeness. The links of everything we value we covered in this episode. Head in over to testguild.com/a546. And if the show has helped you in any way, why not rate it and review it in iTunes? Reviews really help in the rankings of the show and I read each and every one of them. So that's it for this episode of the Test Guild Automation Podcast. I'm Joe, my mission is to help you succeed with creating end-to-end, full-stack automation awesomeness. As always, test everything and keep the good. Cheers.

[00:26:56] Hey, thank you for tuning in. It's incredible to connect with close to 400,000 followers across all our platforms and over 40,000 email subscribers who are at the forefront of automation, testing, and DevOps. If you haven't yet, join our vibrant community at TestGuild.com where you become part of our elite circle driving innovation, software testing, and automation. And if you're a tool provider or have a service looking to empower our guild with solutions that elevate skills and tackle real world challenges, we're excited to collaborate. Visit TestGuild.info to explore how we can create transformative experiences together. Let's push the boundaries of what we can achieve.

[00:27:39] Oh, the Test Guild Automation Testing podcast. With lutes and lyres, the bards began their song. A tune of knowledge, a melody of code. Through the air it spread, like wildfire through the land. Guiding testers, showing them the secrets to behold.